Sounding my barbaric yawp - March 29th, 2000 - Chris Jones
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed within this column are those of
the participants and the moderator, and do not necessarily reflect those of the GIA. There
is coarse language and potentially offensive material afoot. One week down, infinity to
go. Don't say we didn't warn you.
I'm starting to become clued in to why Drew may have changed his discussion topic every
day, lest he become overwhelmed with replies. It's definitely something worth considering...
Man but we've got a lot of ground to cover today. At any rate, with the exception of
Yahoo! being sued by Nintendo, Sega, and Electronic Arts, which seems pretty legitimate in
terms of piracy protection, there's not a lot of news to cover today. Thus, to the column
we move.
| Double Agent: an alternative to overcrowded
public schools |
| Hmm. It seems that most of the people critical of Phantasy Star Online
are worried that the game will be populated with immature, AOL-speaking d00dz. But think
about it: How many console RPGs give the player all that much choice as to what their
characters do and say? In most RPGs, the characters' dialogue and major actions are
pre-written to maintain the designers' intent. Likely, the four players (people seem to
have gotten it into their heads that PSO is massively multiplayer...) will be able to
enter their own battle commands and perhaps walk around locations separately, but the
dramatic aspects of the game will still be preserved. Example: Even if a complete moron
plays FF8, Squall is still a deep character, and the plot is still complex.
I'm not familiar with the Phantasy Star series; perhaps the characters aren't very
pre-written or the game's not very linear, but it does seem likely that PSO is going to do
its best to preserve the elements that make RPGs as plot-oriented as they usually are.
Mylz
PS--Excellent discussion that's been going on here recently about the Japanese and
American cultures--to hell with all the critics who say gaming can't be educational! |
Looking over the GIA's own preview
of PSO, I get the impression we'll see a hybrid of massively multiplayer and console RPGs.
Specifically, I'd say we're going to see PSO consist of a series of mini-quests that you
have to beat in order to beat the game. These quests could be tackled with other players
who are after the same thing, or accomplished with AI-driven allies. During these quests
you'd unlock scripted events and NPCs, which would point you in your next direction.
Such a structure would circumvent many potential problems - since you wouldn't be tied
to a particular party, you wouldn't have to wait around for them to come online to advance
in the game. Any player who's also about to complete mission X would do. And since you
have the option to travel with computer characters, you wouldn't have to worry about going
along with someone who might act inappropriately. Mylz has an excellent point in that the
designers of PSO probably aren't idiots, and that there's a good chance they've designed
the game with the innate stupidity of gamers in mind. Good for them!
| Dragon Quest's Lonely Hearts Club Band |
| Chris, Your comments on yesterday's final letter really interest me,
particularly your prediction of DQ7's chances for a successful release. I don't dispute
for a moment that the game will most likely be pretty antiquated technologically. However,
you're talking about a country and culture whose reverence and for the past is unmatched,
and Dragon Quest has a long (for a video game) and extremely honorable history. It's got a
LOT of momentum pushing it along, and it's gonna take a hell of an obstacle to derail it.
The same goes for the whole manu-driven command system. As soon as the very first
Dragon Quest came took the country by storm, its game engine locked itself in place as the
dominating influence on just about everything to follow. Even the overwhelming majority of
action-RPG's, for which menu-driven game engines are quite ill-suited, have borrowed
heavily from the traditional system simply because it entrenched itself so quickly as
"the way" to make RPG's. And once again, each time a new menu-driven game proved
itself, Japanese developers became more and more devoted to what was clearly proving a
successful formula. Who can blame them? Yeah, there may be other, flashier ways to
interface with a computer than using a good ol' command prompt, but I doubt we'll be
seeing a Final Fantasy GUI anytime soon. And thank God for that, I say.
--Bill Johnson
P.S. In a freak confluence of life events, I read yesterday's column immediately after
finishing work on a chemistry lab. Coke does indeed contain phosphoric acid, and I can
tell you confidently that its concentration is 0.00535 mol/L, or 0.06% by mass. Consider
yourselves educated. |
I'm aware of Dragon Quest's importance in Japanese culture, believe it or not. I know
about the laws the Japanese Diet passed requiring the game to be released only on
weekends, and the history of the word "hoimi". But the fact that something has a
lot of momentum in a society doesn't mean it'll be around forever. Anyone gone disco
dancing lately?
Dragon Quest is the Beatles of RPGs, near as I can tell. But the analogy's not perfect,
it's more like Dragon Quest released Revolver, and then instead of following up quickly
with Sgt. Pepper, waited for years and years, finally releasing something that sounded a
lot like Help! 2.0. Had this actually happened, I doubt The Beatles would be THE BEATLES,
and like I said, I'm not sure Dragon Quest will continue to be DRAGON QUEST for much
longer. Maybe you're right about momentum stopping any real design change, but... well,
we'll see, won't we?
| Can't we all just get along? Hell no! |
| Dear Chris: I just read your comment about Xenogears and Citizen Kane,
and I would just like to point out that to say that one is "better" than the
other is rather narrow minded. One has to appreciate that they are two completely
different types of stories: Citizen Kane represents a very 'personal' style of
story-telling while Xenogears represents a very 'epic' style. One of the limitations of
the entire videogame format is that the plot has to involve some sort of tangible battle.
Because of this, I doubt that very many RPG fans out there would find it entertaining to
play out the entire story of Citizen Kane in an RPG. One cannot expect a game to have the
sort of style that was used in Citizen Kane--however, this does not mean that a game
cannot have a plot as deep or sophisticated as it. I have found that, in general,
Xenogears' true depth goes largely under-appreciated. Xenogears' theme is very
philosophical on an extremely large scale--it deals with themes like religion and the
nature of existence, and yet it does not neglect the more personal and emotional side of
its story. Before you dismiss Xenogears as just another Neon Genesis Evangelion clone
simply because it is a story about giant robots with religious overtones, I would suggest
that you take some time to _really_ think about the themes that its story expresses. Like
any other work of art or literature, many of the subtleties of Xenogears' plot are not
immediately apparent and need to be looked at from many different perspectives to be truly
understood. I do not mean to come of as arrogant or condescending, but it would not be
possible for anyone who had a serious grasp of all of the intricate themes that the game
expressed to say, "you have to be on something to suggest that Xenogears even comes
close to Kane". If you really appreciated either Xenogears _or_ Citizen Kane as art,
you would know how futile it is to argue that one is "better" than the other.
They are simply different types of stories, both with their own merits, and both
completely deserving of our respect.
Sincerely,
Eric Reichel |
I really should have foreseen this coming: the "it's all art, and all art is
equal" argument. I'll admit that there's some truth to this. If you want to paint
your face teal and jump up and down in your underwear and claim that you're engaging in
art, I can't disprove the statement. However, I think it ultimately hurts games much more
than it helps to try and level the playing field in such a manner. For games to be taken
seriously by everyone, they have to pass some form of semi-objective critical muster, and
in such a situation it's really stupid to try and say "Gosh, I think Titanic is as
good a tragedy as Romeo and Juliet." Before anyone's gonna believe that games really
are art, we need to be able to point to something and say, "Look, the ideas here are
as profound and as strongly developed as anything Faulkner did." And right now, we
can't do that.
Yes, Xenogears is an entirely different type of story than Citizen Kane. But even if we
compare it to other religious sf, we still fall way short. Fei Fong Wong, Elly, and Citan
are interesting characters, but they still don't have a fraction of the depth that the
pilgrims in Dan Simmons' Hyperion do. Fei & Co. are more likable, they're better
displayed, but they're just not the same. Any of Philip K. Dick's latter works has better
ideas than XG, even after you factor in translation difficulties and the notion that, as
Neil Gaiman points out, the Japanese tend to go for a high "what the hell was
that?" factor in their stories. I still like Xenogears, and I played pretty close
attention to the themes when I was playing, but I can't bring myself to regard a lot of
"this church is evil, that church isn't, no wait we were wrong, we killed God, but
actually she's God, and so's that dude over there..." as high art. It's fun, it's
entertaining, and yes, it makes you think, but it's just not that meaningful, folks.
| It's not like you actually need to transport
oxygen throughout your body |
| I cut myself shaving today, and haven't stopped bleeding in about 45
minutes. Should I get help? Jon |
Prior to taking over this job, I would have laughed this off. But given some of the
stuff that's come across my POP account in the last few days, I gotta wonder. So, in case
you really are this dumb: YES, IF IT DOESN'T STOP BLEEDING, GO GET HELP! End of
community service for the day.
| I like the way this man thinks |
| No offence, but why do people insist on Citizen Kane being the be-all
end-all of movie history? Do you know what Citizen Kane did? It was great for new camera
angles, it was great for showing people that they could tell a story using differnt types
of shots, or film lenses. Citizen Kane was a basicly BORING movie. The plot was flacid
and holds no interest. It has one thing going for it, and that is 'it's the first movie to
do a few new tricks that someone would have figured out eventually'.
And before you ask... no, I can not suggest a movie in the place of this horrid pile of
crap which is Citizen Kane. I know a little about film, not enough to write you an essay.
-Dibo |
Here we have a writer who actually does know something about film, despite claiming not
to. Citizen Kane is praised as much as anything for developing some cool technical tricks
no one had ever done before, like having ceilings in a movie shot. In this sense, gaming
does have a long list of titles that might qualify as Citizen Kanes, from the original
Zelda to Shen Mue.
But CK also has a great deal of detail and power in the story it conveys. Charles
Foster Kane's rise to empty wealth and power is in no way, shape or form as interesting as
nearly any video game plot. What it does do is tell the story perfectly. There's not a
single false note in Kane, everything is completely solid and believable. In that sense
it's something of a purely technical achievement, like a gymnast who does a very simple
routine absolutely perfectly. A video game analog might be a remake of the original Zelda
that examined the internal strength and sacrifices Link has to have to beat Gannon, and
what it actually means for the princess and the kingdom to be rescued by some guy who's
merely good with a sword. And that's as much as I care to write about Citizen Kane for
some time; we can talk about games as art all you like, but I'm about ready to torch
Rosebud myself at this point.
| I like the way this man thinks too |
| Here's an analogy for ya.... Movies: Citizen Kane
Gaming: In 50 years, when there is a comparable base of games to the number of movies
in existance, I'll tell ya.
Gamers seem to forget that video games are not even 25 years old yet, and movies have
been around for over a hundred. Citizen Kane occured when movies had been around for
almost 50 of those years.
I get the feeling that when a decent amount of time has passed, games like FFVI will be
like the old 1900 era film clips: good for historical interest, but not much else. Gaming
is still in it's infancy....with every new piece of eye-candy, we sit and drool and wonder
how it could get much better....I remember raving about Chronotrigger, thinking it's
graphics were as good as it could get. Now, I wonder what games will look like 5 years
down the road. It's inconcievable to us. You can't pick out the classic games right now,
just as you can't take a book or movie that's 5 years old and call it a classic. A classic
must stand the test of time, which no game, even those from the days of the NES, have not
had enough time to be judged.
Etiam, delenda est Carthago.
BJ |
BJ brings up an important point, and says it damn well. Which is good enough for me.
| In a nutshell |
| so in effect, you like to press a button and have the character attack
rather than pressing a button which selects "fight" to have the character
attack. A L |
That's a gross oversimplification. But basically, yes.
| A game without a menu is, like, wrong, or
something... |
| When I saw you state that you don't like menu-driven RPG's, my first
impulse was similar to many of the readers who wrote in--"WTF? You get no options
without a menu!"--which is, basically, true. Zelda gives you a primary attack, and a
secondary item/weapon; no magic spells. Star Ocean 2 makes you decide before entering
battle two special attacks to use (assuming you're controlling what it considers to be a
fighter), or uses a menu for selecting spells for magic users. And even those use menus to
select the things which are hot-keyed. The simple fact is that, even with the N64's 10
buttons & two controls, there's just not enough there to allow players to choose from
a wide variety of spells, unless you're into bizare 5-10 button sequences for selecting
things, which most players aren't. In fact, computer RPG's still use menus, and they've
got a _lot_ more buttons to work from than their console brethern.
So I was about ready to write you off as a complete and total nut, but then you posted
this: "What I don't like is the basic battle structure, which as many have pointed
out boils down to: "Get into battle, fight, fight, fight, heal, fight, win, move a
bit down the corridor, repeat process." Maybe I'm nuts, but that's boring." So,
unless I'm _really_ misreading you, your actual complaint is with games with excessive
amounts of random battles--especially the ones (like Legend of Legaia) where the battles
take a while to work through. The fact that they're menu-driven doesn't really factor into
that. And I know that I've gotten frustrated with long sequences of random battles in some
games, so I can agree with that standpoint.
But menus are here to stay. RPGs need them for the variety they offer--the variety
which makes RPGs as good as they are.
-Llew Silverhand |
Yes, part of my discomfort is random battles - specifically, repetitiveness. It just
ain't interesting to beat the same monster the 92nd time in the same dungeon. Menus do add
to it a little, in that I'd rather just swing my sword to kill a slime than tell someone
to do it for me, but mostly it's the repetition.
But there are other ways to go about fighting than menus. Metal Gear Solid let you
switch rapidly between weapons and items with a realtime selection system. This was
somewhat menu like, but it wasn't the primary interface to the character and that made a
big difference. Fear Effect had something similar, and while it could have been better
designed, it added an element of challenge to the game, no doubt. Perhaps a more
hierarchical system could be used for more options: "Black Magic/Fire/Fire3".
| They do things differently over there |
| Chris Sure, most console gamers don't want a PC-like online RPG, and
sure, some might. But the fact of the matter is no one ever said Phantasy Star Online is
going to be like a PC online RPG. Back at E3 last year, Sega said "Starting next
year, you are going to see console developers using the Internet in ways never imagined
before." Now I know that's just toting the company line, but it does have truth
behind it. American PC developers and Japanese console developers a very different, and
this will no doubt show in the way online RPGs are handled. Just as single player PC RPGs
are very different from single player console RPGs, I see two styles of online RPGs
emerging. You're meant to travel in a party of 4 for a reason; we'll just have to wait and
see what that is. I think PSO and FFXI are going to be two very important titles, as
they'll set the precedents for all others to follow, and I full well expect Sega and
Square to step up to the plate and offer new things to experiment with.
Justin Freeman |
Keeping in line with earlier comments about PSO, we have someone suggesting that
console online RPGs may be to console RPGs as PC online RPGs are to PC RPGs. Yes, I know
that brings back unpleasant SAT flashbacks to some of you. Nonetheless, the man has a
point. Whatever happens, PSO will be a harbinger for FF Online, which is where a lot of
writers seem to feel the real action will be, so keep an eye on those wacky folks at Sega.
Closing Comments:
This column might have been shorter than yesterday's, but it feels longer. As many of
you may have noticed, the column is varying quite a lot in signal to noise ratio as I play
around with it a bit and try to get a feel for what works. I'm pleased with the results of
today's and yesterday's column, but I may try a less confrontational approach tomorrow, as
it seems like a lot of the letters so far have been about my views and opinions, and this
should be your column more than mine. And, like I said, input is always appreciated, so if
you like or don't like something, send it this way. Sayonara for now.
-Chris Jones, bigger than Elvis |
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