Disclaimer: The opinions expressed within this column are those of the participants and the moderator, and do not necessarily reflect those of the GIA. There is coarse language and potentially offensive material afoot. Why is my car there? Don't say we didn't warn you.

On days like these I wish all the hours I've devoted to gaming had been logged on educational games; namely, games designed to teach calm collectedness in the face of waking up an hour late for class in an apartment turned sauna by an oven left on overnight, melting margarine over the whole of the paper due at the start of third hour....

Too bad no one's willing to make games like that ... why do you suppose that is?

Let's go.

Serious, intelligent, and other things that we are not

There is a REALLY SERIOUS discussion about learning and games right now over at www.joystick101.org, the thread in particular is http://www.joystick101.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/3/4/114242/2444. Scroll to the bottom. Actually, if you're ever in a mood for a serious and intelligent discussion about games you should check it out. -"moron" as registered at www.joystick101.org

Should the "edutainment" meat squealing away its life on the killing floor that is tonight's DA somehow leave you less than satiated, check it out. I, meanwhile, will do my best to ignore the backhanded implication that "serious and intelligent" are qualities DA can never aspire to.

Dictator-in-training

Edutainment. I'm sure everyone's blood runs cold at the mention of that icy marketing phrase. I know mine does. And yet, one of my favorite cable channels, TechTV, is chock full of 'fun & educational' shows(and, by the way, their videogame review show, Extended Play, is long overdue for a plug in this column). And then there's James Burke's brilliant Connections series, and the early episodes of Junkyard Wars(before they made any episodes without Robert 'Kryten' Lewellyn [sacrilege!] and got into more and more obscure and repetitive machines). But in games, where the most memorable example of edutainment is *shudder* The Oregon Trail? There should be a lot of potential here. Imagine how much more fun chemistry would be if you could go into a 3D game world and watch molecules forming. Maybe electron configuration would finally make sense, too. Certainly flight sims have become a standard method of training pilots. Why not surgery sims, hairdressing sims, architecture sims, and just about every other sim you could imagine? While they might not be a perfect substitute for real experience, they would almost definitely be a major boon to any field where complex tasks need to be performed. And maybe, in that world where games are central to all knowledge and wisdom, we video gamers will inherit the earth. Of course, by that logic, the Ogre Battle and Myth fans should have conquered the world by now. Hmm. -Sanagi

I curse your name for mentioning Junkyard Wars in a forum where I am bound to other subject matter and can't extole its many virtues at length. Suffice it to say, I've probably absorbed more principles of applied engineering in the hours I've spent watching Kryten refferee two groups of brainy biker-types in a post-apocalyptic scrapyard than I have over the course of my entire scholastic life to date.

Addressing the more relevent bits of your letter ... Oregon Trail wasn't that bad; c'mon. When I was in school I thirsted for the rare opportunity to shoot me some of those assorted woodland animals blipping across our classroom's amber monitor. Looking back, however, I realize that shooting assorted woodland animals on an archaic amber monitor is about all I remember, making me think that perhaps Oregon Trail wasn't quite accomplishing its educational mission, but rather, just giving kids a welcome excuse to screw off in school....

Sex-ed with Luigi and the girls

Let's not kid ourselves: Commodore 64's Carmen Sandiego was fun to play in school not because you were learning while you played, but because you were playing games IN SCHOOL. To this day I savor that delicious irony. But if I were to pay $30 for 'Learn Division with Snake' for my five-year-old niece, she'd probably stuff Legos in my PS2. SonicPanda

Learning games flimsily constructed from existing licenses as a means of ingratiating flagship characters with 5-yr olds too young to play marquee titles (a la Mario is Missing) are not what I had in mind for this topic.

I can't help but feel that you guys have largely missed yesterday's subtle indicators of where I wanted this column to go. When I said "educational material," I wasn't necessarily talking about the basic arithmetic and monotonous vocabularly builders found in games like Sesame Street ABC & 123 for the NES (although admittedly the minigame where you constructed the best possible path for Rubber Ducky to reach Ernie's bathtub was pretty Goddamn fun). I was hoping David's letter of yesterday would spark some ideas for more sophistacated "edutainment" -- maybe even educational games focusing on subject matter of interest to adults.

Burned by the sweep of the streetlights....

Oh, come on. You're just not thinking hard enough. We've had enough animal simulations to make my head burst. Have you forgotten about Space Station: Silicon Valley, where you took control of various animals, exploiting their specialties to escape from a huge eco-sphere? What about Hamptaro, the amazing rodent-in-a-box simulation. And Seaman was KIND of animal like, I suppose. Hands have tried to express themselves via animal videogames, and it just ain't workin'. They just don't sell. I admit, I've never been overly enthused about animal games myself, because there has just been more to do elsewhere for my money. Why? Because animals don't really have that much of an exciting life, now, do they? They sit around. They eat. They crap. In the case of wild animals, they gather food, try to stay alive in the harsh winter, and make babies, while being careful not to travel too far out into the highway to get slaughtered. Not an overly exciting or interesting premise for a videogame, I'm sorry to say. For the record, I did enjoy SimAnt, but that was only because you could form your own little armies (it was quite like a war sim at times), and dig your own two-dimensional underground haven. But the fact that most of these games just have you sitting around, waiting for something to happen removes all the--dare I bring it up again--good stuff. And, Erin, a heavy games educational market will never exist on a console. Why? Education games are much more ideally suited towards the computer, with its keyboard, and audio input abilities. You can also have more involved educational experiences (flight sims, for example) because of the vast array of controls possible with keyboard/voice. I'm sure that Billy will be come a much more advanced education if he uses correct grammar and pronunciation in Reader Rabbit 12, than he would in Mario's Early Years, pressing the A button to select never-ending multiple choice questions (it seems I know too much of this subject for some reason... heh, heh, heh o.o;;). I think Steve Jobs said it best, even though the purpose of his statement at the time was totally irrelevant to this topic: "You turn on the computer to turn your brain on. You turn on the TV to your brain off. " Well, in my case, I want to jam the square button to fill some mutha's ass with lead. Then again, GTA III is a very accurate and educational simulation about gangster awareness. :-D Steve S. Freitas, who is at least making an attempt to shorten his letters after the saddening comments concerning the "length of Steve" yesterday. That stuff burns, Erin. :'(

Playful accusations of wordiness pale in comparison with what I'm tempted to lay on you for calling Silicon Valley an animal sim. Whether or not a playable National Geographic documentary on the migratory habits of the echidna is your thing, you can't very well lump it in with Sonic & Knuckles simply because the latter happens to be loosely representative of said monotreme. Possessing the body of a souped-up racing mouse that handles in a fashion I can only liken to the bastard son of a Honda Civic and Bubsy 3D is not an animal sim. That is all.

Sir, Madam or Thing:

Dear Sir or Madam: I was thinking about this just the other day. I was watching an underwater documentary. I was thinking about how neat and strange and mysterious things seem under the water... all the creatures look like monsters, even the plants, and the sea floor looks even stranger. I think underwater would be a nice setting for a game. It would also be neat because of a third dimension underwater. Since you can swim, if it were some sort of action game, you'd have to look for enemies above you and below you, and not just on the four sides... And of course, you would play as a turtle, since turtles are better than all other animals. But another thing about turtles is they live a very long time, and while they start out very small and helpless, with enormous odds against the survival of any one baby sea turtle, the ones that survive end up large and with strong shells to protect them, sort of. -a metal slime

This is more what I -- and, I suspect, David -- envisioned: freely exploring a meticulous recreation of a world beyond humanity's grasp; surveying the mountain landscape as a raptor on the hunt, prowling the rainforest undergrowth with a jaguarundi defending its territory. Nothing would help us to understand an ecosystem quite so well as being a part of it.

Games provide us with experiences we could never have otherwise -- why not use this to better acquaint us with the hidden facets of own world?

Acing your LSATs with a little help from Pikachu

Erin, Actually, I think video games are already educational, just nobody seems to believe it. We can reduce "education" to two basic skills: reading and math. Last time I checked, your typical RPG, and I'm including Pokemon, is loaded with things to read, and things that require math skills. Reading is a given (Xenogears anybody?), although grammar is probably optional. Math is a little less apparent, but if it involves leveling up, it involves math. XP to next level? Foozle blast takes 63 HP off a 221 HP Foozle, so I need four turns to beat it. I've made it short, but I think I've made my point. I'll make it again in a different way: AD&D or D&D (2nd ed.). Basic math and algebra! Actually, this is one of my biggest gripes about console games, in that most of the math is "under the hood". Yeah, strength 75 is better than strength 50, but how? More damage? Better hit chance? Critical hits? Granted, some of this is ridiculously complex (ever seen the FFT Battle Mechanics guide on GameFAQs?), and some things are better off hidden, but some basic information would be nice. And, coincidentally, we could all buff up our math at the same time. More generally, all types of games require one or both of pattern-recognition (logic) and problem-solving (analysis). From the complex problems of ICO and Incredible Crisis to the basic patterns of Tetris and shmups, all games test these skills to a certain extent. And, in my opinion, even if you need a walkthrough to figure it out, you're still exercising the skill. Believe me, if you want to pass any of those infamous standardized tests (LSAT, anybody?), you want all the logic and analysis skills you can find. Finally, educational games do poorly because they are bad games. Slapping a "game" onto a math test doesn't make it fun or interesting. Imagine you want to learn about birds, i.e. how to identify them, what they eat, where they live, etc. David's bird simulator has potential, but think about it a different way. There's the obvious (SimBirdSanctuary), and the not-so-obvious. What about an FPS/RPG where different birds fly in the background according to the area? Vultures in the desert, penguins in the snow, pigeons in the city, whatever (yeah, I know nothing about birds). Yes, it's not as deep or informative, but as long s it's correct, you're learning, whether you know it or not. Orin the Lawyer - wishes he had a better example, but I've got a patent to draft.

Undeniably, we exercise a lot problem solving in the line of getting through a video game. But we also do a helluva lot of by-rote learning -- something a lot of people confirmed today with letters detailing how they still remembered how to pull off all of Mortal Kombat's original fatalities and how, even now, Hiro's cries of "Burn! Burn! Burn!" haunt their very dreams....

Learn Swahili with John Truitt

Erin, Actually, I find that games are already very educational. Because of playing games, I've learned so much: women are useless in combat save for casting spells, organized religion wants to destroy the universe, and (as seen in the recent concept sketches for Project Ego) Water Nymphs like to show their tits. Actually, though, if done correctly, an educational game could be fun. Just think: Instead of raising Seamen or Monsters, you could raise little tape worms growing inside the intestines of dogs, or a racing game where you have to beat the other sperm to the egg! Or, they could just make a game and then tack on little educational bits; you know, instead of crying out, "BURN!" when casting Firaga, they would yell out, "Energy is equal to mass times the speed of light squared!" -Lee, who really only wanted to point out that Project Ego has tits in it. Tits attached to ugly, woman-like figures.

We load up on pointless skills and minutia; from how to speak Al Bhed to where to get the best prices for our second-hand armor. Just think -- if every boss in a game repeated a phrase in Portugese as many times as Ghaleon says "Time to die!" we'd all be fluent by now.

For the price of just a cup of coffee....

Erin, How can you dismiss the wonder of edutainment that is "Mario is Missing" as a small feat? Not only was that game the biggest must-have on the SNES, but it also made me want to cut my ears off. And, let's not forget the wonder of Genesis engineering: "Where in Time is Carman Sandiego" Seriously, though... There are a multitude of barriers, it seems, to actually utilizing consoles for education gaming. First and foremost, the typically steep development (not the least of which are licensing and dev-kit expenses) and publishing costs seem to put a hamper on things. While your typical PC piece of educational garbage--and I use that term only because most of them are--runs for around 10 bucks, the royalty, licensing, printing, and other various mark-up costs almost assure that console games can't possibly run for any less than $30 on launch...probably more if they have any dreams of making more than 5 cents out of the deal. The aforementioned "Where in Time..." run for $50 new, just like every other game at the time. So, one could either buy a quality title such as Ecco the Dolphin or Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (which had come out in a similar time-frame) or a piece of shoddy edutainment with the replay value of Progress Quest. (Of course, this isn't to say that Progress Quest isn't a wonderful game...I just wouldn't want to play it twice in a row, if you know what I mean.) There are a few other niggling obstacles as well, such as the lack of a built-in keyboard/mouse--which are generally suited to most pieces of educational software. The last is probably just that parents would probably just as well sit their kids in front of OPB or The Discovery Channel rather than pay $30 for "Interactive Educational Software." So, all in all, I don't think that consoles are really well-suited to educational software as a general rule. Just my opinion, though--gonna go back to playing "Mario is Missing" now. -Jayde

Well, I can't dismiss your argument that parents, who I doubt would put much faith in the educational value of a Nintendo game, anyway, would put up $30-50 for a finite piece of learning when basic cable is crowded with cheaper alternatives like Discovery Channel, TLC, and Animal Planet. However, basic cable is up to $35/month in my neck of the woods, so it isn't inconceivable the balance of power could shift in gamimg's favor one day.

This hit will teach you HELLA critical thinking skills

Hey Erin, In short, I don't think videogames could work as an educational tool. Why not? Well, for the same reason that movies, and television don't work as educational tools. I mean, really. Books are enough. The internet is enough. People -- adults, teenagers, children -- should learn by doing, seeing, and hearing REAL things. Not by playing videogames. Although the producers of -- excuse my language -- SHIT like Teletubbies or Barney or whatever act as though they might believe television is a viable educational tool, they're constantly scared that SOMEONE is going to figure it out along the line. 'Edutainment' only fucks people up. Case in point: I am a 22 1/2 year-old college graduate who was forced to watch Sesame Street as a child. What do I end up as? A lawyer? A doctor? A medical and/or law student with massive loans to pay? No! I'm a DAMNED author of postmodern cyber-fundamentalist literary fiction who's yet to make even a full million dollars! I want my life back, PBS! If anything, videogames should only 'educate' us as a bizarre side-effect. The pope praises Pokemon, and, in my opinion, with good reason. Pokemon teaches kids all kinds of things. Like water beating fire, thunder beating water, and fire beating ice. It teaches kids about the big game of paper-rock-scissors in the sky we call the 'circle of life.' Okay, well, seriously, it teaches HELLA critical thinking skills. I think those were the pope's exact words: 'Kids of the world, this shit will teach you HELLA critical thinking skills.' If you ask me, critical thinking skills are the defining characteristic of smart people. Everything else comes naturally if you have critical thinking skills. Or the abilty to self-reflect without sounding pretentious. Then again, what videogame can teach that? The most 'educational' game I've played is Metal Gear Solid. I learned many -- well-researched and implemented-- things about bomb disposal, weapons currently in use by the US Armed Forces, nuclear weapons disposal, genome research, and all that good stuff. I consider it an integral part of good entertainment -- movies, literature, videogames -- that we end up learning something in the end. It doesn't have to be a Tortise-and-the-Hare 'slow and steady wins the race' kind of tacked-on moral (or relentless anti-nuke preaching from a woman named Nastasha) -- it can be something so slight as prompting us to think, 'Gee, Cloud's really messed-up in the head -- maybe I'll look up information on the internet about abnormal psychology, so I can better appreciate the story!' I'm too busy writing about train pirates and the end of the world by 'continental levitation and distortion' to write any more. Until next time. --tim rogers, played Xenogears, re-read the Bible. and the Koran.

There you have it, parents. Educational material will turn your children into postmodern cyber-fundamentalist literary fiction writers, and God knows that's no way for a human being to live.

Closing Comments:

I do suppose it's time we talked about Project Ego. Is this the game that''ll sell the RPG-loving holdouts on the Xbox? If nothing else, for the tit-showing water nymphs...?

- Erin Mehlos