Disclaimer: The opinions expressed within this column are those of the participants and the moderator, and do not necessarily reflect those of the GIA. There is coarse language and potentially offensive material afoot. And a mediocrity for all time. Don't say we didn't warn you.

Does it seem even vaguely fair that someone like me, who appreciates expensive and trendy things like sushi and spends a large portion of the day essentially allowing others to avail themselves of my superior knowledge and experience - an Internet personality, by all the hells - should be forced to clean my own toilet?

Didn't think so.

Anyway, wow. Way to break the radio silence, people. I've got a veritable CBS mailbag here, which makes it all the harder for me to pare the pile down to an acceptably-printable few. The usual apologies to anyone who didn't make the cut. It in no way reflects upon the quality of your letter or or you as a human being; instead, it is indicative of my fickle mood, lack of sleep and dissatisfaction with my sex life.

With that out of the way, let's dive in then, shall we?

If you can forgive our comedic reliance on hackneyed game quotes, then I can find it in my heart to forgive you for implying someone among us had an IQ roughly equivalent to that of the average 6th grade science teacher.

In related news, that's one vote for Grandia....

The Pavlovian cringe

My favorite battle system? That would have to be Grandia's. For people who haven't played it -- at its heart, it's a very simple system. Grandia has turn based battles in which all the characters and enemies can act at once. Your position in the field affects which opponents you can get to (and vice versa). There are two kinds of attacks -- the standard attack, which does more damage, and the critical attack, which can disrupt the opponent's move if you time it right. There are also some spells and special moves. It's simple, but it's enough. The placement of the characters and enemies combined with the timing and choice of those two attacks allow for many interesting tactical decisions. And with every character acting simultaneously, the battles are very fast. But here's the best advantage of the system -- Grandia's battles seem much more fluid than in any other menu/RPG game. It's an illusion, of course -- If you ever put down the controller, the game just stops. But the feeling of a real fight is excellent. And unlike in a true action game, you can effectively direct all the characters in your group. Game Arts also managed to get the fine points down right. If all characters and enemies are waiting, the clock automatically speeds up, so you don't have to experience the wait yourself. The opponents show up on the area map, so you don't suffer from a Pavlovian cringe when the CD is accessed for a random battle. And the battle interface is excellent -- The really common battle options are very easy to pick, and even the unusual choices aren't difficult. The battle system does have one questionable design decision -- You can always view your opponents' life points and pending actions. That makes the choice of attacks and targets more interesting, but it also means the battles are easy to win. And that's the battle system's real flaw -- Grandia is so easy that you can do just fine without caring about all these clever tactical choices. (This is doubly true in Grandia 2.) And experience in Grandia is earned in a RuneQuestish learn-by-practice system which encourages the casting of useless spells. But that's probably a different topic. Still, they created a fast and simple system with a better feel and more interesting tactics than the much more complicated battle sytems used elsewhere. It's really a nice accomplishment, and I hope other games will steal Grandia's ideas unmercifully. Snu

Grandia got an overhwleming amount of votes for "best battle system ever."

While I'd tend to disagree, I will say its handling of battles is what kept me slogging onward till the end of the game. It was truly well-realized, and I particularly appreciated Game Arts' typical elimination of random battles.

If not for its forgettable story and crippling voice-acting, Grandia may very well have earned a spot in my personal pantheon of divine game experiences.

Redefining "ugly" since 1989

Battle systems? Best: Grandia (pending Grandia II/FFX). Fast, real-time for moves but still turn-based for making decisions. Nice strategic elements, combining positioning with tactics (especially delaying an opponent with a critical). Magic is actually useful. The Vagrant Story system is a little too menu-heavy to rank first (and the magic is a little weak). Doesn't mean that I would object to another game using it, though. I'm also a fan of the FF7 materia system (but not ATB - see below). Worst (as used): Chrono Cross. Am I the only person who played the game without casting anything other than the occasional healing spell? (And, well, the spells you *have* to cast). I didn't see a summons until New Game+ mode, and that's only because I wanted to see what they look like. Granted, that has more to do with the game design than the battle system, but, still. There's potential, but it's wasted. Worst: FF8. Draw spells from monsters, but don't cast them? Leveling up weakens characters? "Turbo" boost? Ugh. I like FF games, but the battle systems normally leave something to be desired. FF8 is just crap. Yeah, I'm old school. I like turn-based or "phased" (new buzzword) battle systems. The whole ATB thing gets on my nerves sometimes, especially when the phone rings while I'm playing or the cat jumps on my lap or something. Honorable mention for innovation: Ring of Red. Yeah, the game needed more work (cough, load times, cough), but it added a nice (and small) real-time dimension to a traditional turn-based system. I'm really tempted to go on a diatribe about some of the stuff (past and present) that's been done in PC games, but I know better. Orin the Lawyer - wielder of the One Ring P.S. So far I'm liking DWVII, but it's also set a new standard for U-G-L-Y.

I really have to disagree about Chrono Cross, but I'll get into why in a bit, as we wade into the slew of letters from CC proponents. I will admit that I never used those damn summons, despite going out of my way to catch 'em all.

As for FF8 ... I was thrilled with the whole idea of not having to level up. Hell, once a GF learned Enc None I turned those bastard random battles off and left it that way. And while the Junction system required a bit more anal retentive nitpickiness than I normally have patience for, it allowed for a level of customization not seen in a FF since V.

Incidentally, I'd tend to agree that DWVII is something of a blight on my visual enjoyment of the world, but it is nonetheless an eminently playable game. I'll save my thoughts, though, for DWVII day....

A different perspective on the definition of "mindless"

Star Ocean 2. OK, that's the short answer. My last few letters have been thrown into the huge gaping maw of your predecessor's shredder (or perhaps her blast furnace)... perhaps she has something against rival mailbag hosts. Hopefully you have no such biases! *ducks* Anyway... ah yes, Star Ocean 2. Why do I like it? Because it's not mindless. You can't just get by by holding down the A button (although in later battles you can get by by not holding down anything at all, which I like even better). It's also by far the most realistic battle system I've yet seen. It's the way real battles happen - everyone hits everyone else at the same time. You have challenging battles from level 1 straight through level 125 (and another one at level 200 or so if you have that kind of insane patience) - and none of them are challenging in that oh-so-cliched RPG manner such as: -Battle starts. -Big bad boss instantly kills everyone / does a status attack which renders everyone defenseless against being instantly killed -Game finishes. Player mercilessly destroys controller. SO2 battles *always* give me a kind of feeling that if I'd been a *bit* faster or equipped something a bit different, I'd have been able to beat it. And I try again. And again. And I don't seem to get bored. Although you do need far better reflexes for that game than most others... I get this carpal tunnel syndrome thing after a few hours... thankfully the characters' AI have progressed quite a bit since the days of Tales of Phantasia... Battles with those Slimes that multiply can be utterly INSANE. O_o We shall not mention the battles with the angels. One of the only two battles I've never finished in an RPG which I *have* finished is Iselia-queen. (The other is Ozma from FF9. Stupid planet.) Honorable mention for Best Battle System would most certainly go to FF Tactics. Though not the same type of game, it also has just the right kind of challenge, although instead of challenging you physically, this one challenges you intellectually. No, you can't just use big magic to kill people. No matter how buffed up you are, the enemies buff up with you, so nyah! There really is a reason why it's called FF Tactics - you have to actually use 'em! I never liked the idea of there being "the game" and then "the battles" as two orthogonal pieces of a puzzle that never meet. Both games tend to integrate them far better into their gameplay. That's about it for me for tonight... hey, I'll tell you what... I'll print a letter of yours if you print a letter of mine...zzzz.... --Cidolfas RPGClassics.com

Hell, if you like mashing a button while every battle participant yells simultaneous warcries, impossibly obscuring any one individual absurdity, more power to you. I couldn't stand SO2's battle system, but then again, I do clean my own toilet.

PURIFY WEIRD SOUL!

Valkyrie Profile. I just love screaming "PURIFY WEIRD SOUL!" every time I lay down a massive combo. Conversely, my wife hates the game for just that reason. Doug Erickson

Valkyrie Profile is one missed game I really ought to get around to playing, methinks.

Multiplayer Mana Madness

Ms. Mehlos, I'm a longtime detractor of Final Fantasy's ATB system, and a longtime proponent of Grandia's psuedo-real-time system-- but that certainly doesn't mean I have anything against Square. On the contrary, my favorite all-time RPG battle system comes from my favorite all-time RPG-- Secret of Mana. For those who haven't yet experienced the wonder of this classic title, it goes like this. Battles are real-time-- enemies come up to you, you hit them; unless you suck, they die first. However, you have two other people with you. You can let the computer control them (although you have the ability to dictate how each character behaves in battles), or you can switch your control between characters, or you can use a multitap to get two friends together and have each person control a character. I could go on, and discuss the ability to use multiple different weapons, the ability to get multiple special attacks for each weapon, the ability to control your other characters' use of magic (both offensive and defensive)... but why bother? Secret of Mana did what no other RPG deigns to do-- it took a great setting, a great storyline, great music, and great action... and then allowed you to play through it with two of your friends. Maybe that's what made this game so timeless for me. We never have time to do this anymore, but in my first year of college, my friend Chris and I would play Secret of Mana together for an hour or so before classes started. So what if all my characters on all three save files are all Level 99, with all Level 9 magic and Level 9 weapons (including the Level 9 sword, thanks to a glitch in the game)? It's still a blast to play, and there just isn't any other multiplayer RPG on the market, unless you count PSO-- which, compared to SoM, is short and has no storyline; not to mention that it -must- be played online, which restricts communication. I'd like to see more games that did this and did it well, but so far no one has taken up the gauntlet on the console side. Perhaps the Xbox's built-in broadband modem will help to change this, but regardless of the system I think that the world needs another good multiplayer RPG. Look how successful the idea has made the Diablo games on the PC! -Nij

Stop calling me "Ms. Mehlos" like we're not all-time bestest-ever pals. It distances us unneccessarily, man.

Secret of Mana's battle system made it the first RPG I was ever able to play with friends. Hell, I introduced my then-tiny little sister to RPGs with SoM because it enabled her to fight alongside me without having to worry about the complications of spells and menus.

Yes, playing alone often led to the computer-handled characters getting impossibly stuck in a damn wall, but who played Mana when they wanted to fly solo, anyway?

Interestingly enough, I also had a Lv. 9 weapon. Some critter in the Mana Fortress left me a Spear's Orb. I'd often marveled at the weirdness of that.

A bazillion and one

DA, I'm sure about a bazillion people will say this, but by far the best combat system I've found is in Final Fantasy Tactics. The complexity of zodiac symbols, elevation, attack type, etc., made for a really enjoyable experience. Also, I really liked the AT system - made it fairly simple to determine if you could get a shot off with an archer or a summoner before x enemy moved. That's one of the rare games where the combat system, rather than the story (which was fairly interesting in its own right), *makes* the game. Part of the reason I like FFT's fighting system so much is because I played Shining Force 1 and 2 when they first came out. I thought the fighting system in SF 2 evolved greatly from SF 1; the combat system overall was much cleaner and more refined. Although there were some quirks (master monks getting skipped for a few combat turns after getting boosted because their agility was so high, the CPU couldn't make heads or tails of it), the game played very much like FFT, although on a simpler level. -Iskandar

I adore the living hell out of the AT system. I had forgotten how good I'd had it with FFT until I played Saiyuki and had no idea who was going to attack next. Of course, it wouldn't have made much sense in S:JW, where commands were executed as soon as they were put in, but nevertheless, I like to know whose turn it is, dammit!

Fall into the GAP - Gamers Against Puzzles, that is

Erin, I'll admit, Chrono Cross had a very unique battle system, and it shows a lot of potential if they were to rework it for a Chrono III. In its current incarnation, however, it is simply repetitive, and is just a step above the title of Brain Numbing. Don't get me wrong, Brain Numbing can be a good thing, in games such as FFVII, where Leveling Up would be totally unbearable with an alert mind, but Chrono Cross gives little of the Level Up bonus, and when you know that all you're going to get from a fight is a friggin' Carapace, it makes every little Attack feel like a Summon. The system is great for boss battles, but for random enemies, you just want to cut to the chase, and kill 'em ASAP. Having to spend time building up to a sufficient Element Level before slaughtering them is just painful sometimes. OK, enough about what I dislike... Xenogears, now that's a good example of a battle system I enjoy. It even has a few things in common with that of Chrono Cross, (the Attack strengths and AP coming to mind), but a Deathblow is easier to pull off, as your Attack combo is uninteruptable and you do not have to wade through a slow-scrolling menu to pull off the desired technique. Oh, and I LOVE games with multiple combat engines. Normal, Gear, and the Battling Arena all give a decent variety, with the first two being interchanged often enough (except at the game's end) to make the differences truly enjoyable. Yes, I know that Gear fighting requires you to build up to a Deathblow over several turns, but the Deathblows are not the goal of Attacking, instead they are a nice, powerful perk. Admittadly, I am not fond of unintentionally useless abilities (Heaven Cent), but that not reminds me of the intentionally useless ones found in the BOF series. I find myself using Stare at every opportunity. Ah, yes, and while we're on BOF, let's discuss combinations, shall we? Or, rather let's just keep it simple. Multiple-character abilities are another one of those things that has -potential-. Nice, but needs work. Now, onto a new subtopic with a new comparison: Timing, as presented by Super Mario RPG and Vagrant Story. I know that you're probably shudderring considering the length of my CC/Xeno comparisons, so I'll keep it short. Timing is best kept as an inhancement. It should not, I repeat, it should not, be the focus of a role-playing battle system. I could also bring LoD into this, but any mention of that game just mysteriously happens to be a flame waiting to happen, so...ONWARD! TO THE CLOSING! ~Beowulf_VII, having covered only a tiny fraction of my favorite topic, and appologizing for the length of what made it through my non-existant editing system. (Geez, even the closing is long...I'll shut up now.)

I also see CC and Xenogears' battle systems as first-cousins, but while I enjoyed them both, I'm gonna have to side with CC as my favorite among the two.

I thought that having to build up to progressively stronger attacks instead of just repeatedly hitting the "fight" button kept things a little more engaging during those oh-so-frequent inconsequential battles. I liked the challenges of properly junctioning your Elements within that hierarchal grid; of weighing sticking a spell in a higher slot to lend it more power against stocking it lower for accessibility's sake.

On the subject of timing.... I think it all depends on how it's employed. I thought it was quite effective in Super Mario RPG, and I have to honestly say I didn't totally mind the way in which it was used in LoD. Heh. Pity about the rest of the game, though.

Crap incarnate

Erin - Worst battle system? The honours (at least, in the world of Square) would most certainly go to Xenogears. The hand-to-hand fights consisted of using the same (i.e. most powerful) attacks repeatedly, with the occasional heal; all other spells were a waste of time. Combined with a seizure-inducing flash after every attack and a ridiculously high encounter rate, this system alone was among the RPG realm's biggest atrocities. But then they had to add the Gear battles. These blasphemies dragged strategy down the full length of shit creek and fed the sorry result to a starving prostitute named Simone. Battles now consisted solely of using your most powerful attack repeatedly. I might have healed my Gears a dozen times max over the course of the game. The end result was mixed nicely with some of the worst battle choreography in existance, plus some retarded pink hearts and squeals from Elly for good measure. How I managed to finish that "game" is beyond me. -CS-

Harsh ... I love it.

What? You wanted me to say more? Hell, people. I have places I gotta be.

More is better

Huh. No one mentioned Lufia II. Lufia II had kick ass puzzles. Go out and buy Lufia: The Legend Returns so they'll finally make a next generation sequel. This, I command. I...can't really pick out any one battle system that I've loved unconditionally. There have been lots with ideas that really appealed to me, but didn't seem to follow through. I like ATB systems that let you do lots of different things mid battle, like stealing an item from an enemy or morphing it into an item, but you're never really given a reason to do that more than once except with a few special enemies and that's typically near the end of a game. It sort of defeats the purpose of having those options open to you. And despite being used to two parties lining up and taking turns attacking each other, I think VS's BS took a little too much suspension of disbelief. Hold still, in mid-air, while I hit you fifteen times with my BFS and do less than one point of damage each time. I would've liked it if the defense system was as elaborate as the offense. Get some parry dodge thrust action going on on both sides. I would also have liked to see some kind of system where you move with each attack. I'd always enter a room and think 'Now if I could just hack off that lizard man's head, spin around and cut that other lizard man's foot out from under him, and then bash that blood lizard in the face with my shield, I'd be through that door in the time it took me to think this.' And, I'm not sure if FFT counts for this conversation, I was basically of the opinion that more would have been better. Maybe seven, even ten units per side. Much bigger more elaborate maps. Skills, classes, monsters out the wazoo. The problem with that though is that it could take you a good 120+ hours to really *play* the game. And on the opposite side of the spectrum are the more action oriented battle systems of games like Secret of Mana and the Tales series. And I like the idea of these systems, and they do manage to be pretty darn fun, but they too frequently disolve into button mashing. Maybe take note from fighting games and add special move combo type things to make them a bit more thought intensive. I'm sure I've described something that's already been done here. Anyway, way more than anyone ever wanted to know about what I think about battle systems. Even though I could go on... ~Ian "Rabies too?" P.

Someone did in fact send in a letter yesterday about Lufia 2, which I, bitch that am, did not print because at the time I was in something of a hurry and had almost finished putting the column together. My apologies to you, Ian, and to the author of the Lufia 2 letter.

For me, Xenogears and CC were a "step in the right direction" in terms of bringing more interactivity into the often drab RPG battles. FF8 also touched on this with Zell's "duel" limit break and even Squall's timed Renzukoken.

As for there needing to be more of FFT, I couldn't agree more. I'd love to see strategy RPGs go grand-scale for a change and give you 10 or more units to a side with which to raze a huge, multiple screen-panning battlefield.

And BTW, my heart is warmed by this rabies bond we share.

Madness & Indecision

I don't have *one* most favourite, but I have several favourites, which include: Final Fantasy 7: This is the only FF I've ever played 3 times to date because all I need to do is get enough money to get a good weapon and and then get on with the story for my materia to gain levels. No fuss of, "Excuse me Meteor while I go and level up for a few hours. Don't come down until I tell you to, ok?" That, and I can use which characters I want, not which characters I need. I've always been a fan of the ATB system anyway; makes me think quick. Vagrant Story: I still I can't believe I once spent a week in the workshop making weapons, and then walking out there to hit things. I am even more amazed by the fact that I actually enjoy walking around for a week doing nothing but killing things. Callo can die for all I care. Threads of Fate: When I like everything to be fast paced without having to wait my turn. Persona 2: Nobody ever mentions this game. It's full of strategy and complicated stuff that I actually enjoy watching my dad play. I don't even need to play it hands-on to enjoy it! It's not Active Time, but all I have to it decide what I want my characters to do and I can go off and get a drink while they fight away until I say so. As for *least* favourite, it's still Wild Arms. I don't know, the whole battle system is just boring. DMJ

Eh? A week in the workshops of Lea Monde? Are you out of your damn mind? I loved VS, but I bore no such sentiment for the workshops in particular. Opening, shutting, rummaging through that damned treasure box and being forced to undergo that horrifically slow save process every single time.... Madness, sez I.

2/40

Erin, As far as I'm concerned, a good battle system in an RPG should be the main puzzle in the game. There are those that argue that a worthwhile RPG shouldn't allow you to customise your characters very much, and that the skill of the game should be to use effective strategies within the battles. I, however, find it much more satisfying to apply my time and effort in my materia combining/job-choosing/junctioning before the battle - hence making the battle easier so I don't have to concentrate as hard while I'm fighting it. I liked the battle system in FF8 quite a lot - I decided that I was sick of summoning GFs and watching their boring animations to win battles, so I gave Squall Ifrit's Strength + 40% and Strength Up skills, and started junctioning every Ultima spell I found to his strength stat, allowing me to eventually avoid using GFs at all because he just became so ridiculously powerful. And then they say that RPGs are linear...a good battle system makes the game non-linear because, to quote Eightball yesterday, you've effectively been 'given a task - any task - and, because of the design of the game, are given multiple ways to complete it' The task, of course, is to make the annoying random encounters easier for yourself, and those RPGs with good customisable systems (e.g. FF5, 7 and 8) allow you to do so - what's more, the puzzle is seamlessly integrated into the gameplay; in fact it is the gameplay ;) Of course, simply levelling up is another way of making the game easier, or stockpiling megalixirs or whatever, and so you're given plenty of choices as to how you want to proceed in beating the game. That's not to say I didn't enjoy FF4, 6, and 9 - on the contrary. Their systems weren't as deep but they did allow some customisation, simply because of being able to equip different weapons, armour, accessories, whatever...and in any case, I don't only play FF games for a good battle system. The one battle system I couldn't stand, though, was Vagrant Story's. I'd spend an hour in a bloody workshop, looking at which weapons and armour I should combine, finally making some decisions, putting excess weapons from my inventory into the treasure chest, and then I'd go and realize that even though I have 7 different weapons all aimed at different character types and elemental types and whatnot, none of them is really very effective against this particular boss because he's a light monster not a dark monster, or a green one not a spotted one, and so after hitting him a few times I have to run around so that he can't attack me so often and my HP has a chance to refill, and of course I beat him in the end but it takes me at least half-an-hour, and I don't see the point in spending hours in workshops if you can't even make yourself an effective weapon or piece of armour except either by fluke or by using a walkthrough which explains all the millions and billions of different combinations, because there's barely any logic in the stupid system at all, and then I fight an ordinary enemy and get 3 stupid weapons I've never heard of so I have to rush back to the nearest workshop only to find you can't process this type of metal there, so I run to the next one and get all my weapons out of the inventory and try different combinations until I have something new, but then this new thing is a different metal so I have to run back, back, back, to a workshop right at the start of the game , but first all the excess items back in treasure chest, then take them all out again, then try combining them and find there's nothing special I can make, and then realize I've spent hours just trying to make sure I'm making full use of all the armour and weapons in my stupid undersized but too full inventory and treasure chest, and so I put all the stupid weapons back and then go back out to the monotonous dungeons and the monotonous fighting and then get sick of it and go on the internet where I'm told that to get the most powerful version of the most powerful weapon you have to play through the game at least 26 times, and that's if you're lucky, and that there are this and that rules for combining weapons and armour but this one doesn't apply here and that one doesn't apply there which just proves there's no logic at all, and feel sick and annoyed at Famitsu for giving such a poorly designed game 40/40. Anyway you don't have to post or even read all that rant (sorry if you already have ^_^) - in summary I didn't like VS's battle system because there was very little logic in the weapon/armour-making, only a few hazy rules which don't always apply, meaning it was either a question of fluke or walkthroughs, and the battle system generally was overcomplicated in a pointless, time-wasting kind of way. Sure, the 'combine an Iron item with a Bronze item of the same type to get a Hagane item' was nice, but the rest of it didn't follow such pleasant, simple rules. I like a bit of menu-crawling, but not anywhere near that much. And so it sucked :p Paulo

Despite liking Vagrant Story a whole helluva lot, I always appreciate the long, meticulous shredding of one of gamerdom's sacred cows. Rip Ashley a new one, man!

As far as FF8's concerned, people have been bitching since the game hit their living rooms about the battle system's reliance on summons.

The way I saw it, however, the whole bloody point was for your party to begin the game relatively weak and dependent on their GFs, and then for the balance of power to slowly shift as junctioning to more and more powerful spells became possible. I don't know about anyone else, but by the end of FFVIII, my GFs didn't get so much as a look in anymore; Zell and Squall pretty much ruled the battlefield with their respective limit breaks.

Everybody Loves Lea Monde

Erin, I am a really big fan of Vagrant Story's battle system. While the learning curve is quite steep, I like the freedom it gives me. When fighting a demon, I have to ask myself whether I am more concerned about his ability to distance himself from me (in which case I target his wings) or about his ability to cast spells (in which case I target his head). Do I want to use a sword and sheild when waging my battles against dragons or do I want to use a polearm (which being a two-handed weapon, precludes the use of a sheild)? The aforementioned are only some of the considerations that come into play when engaging in battle in Vagrant Story. I don't like complexity for the sake of complexity (case in point: Legend of Dragoon), but if the complexity is the result of freedom, I welcome it. - Mark

I also appreciated the vast number of things to be taken into account in VS' system, but the sheer complexity of it occasionally irritated me. Having painstakingly built-up, say, an edged-type weapon with +50 beast and +42 water affinities, I would invariably run into some earth-based crawlie totally invulnerable to edged-type attack, pretty much making my efforts for naught. And usually then I didn't appreciate the vast number of things that had to be taken into account quite so much.

Giant Bees!

Brooke? Drew? Chris? Erin? Buffy? Jody? Mr. French? Chief? McCloud!? Anyway, whoever is the acting troll-tamer and spam-eater today- I think the funnest battle system has to be that of Legend of Dragoon. Very dance-simulationy, but after a few hundred battles it loses some spark, and you end up cringing like a dot-com company stock holder every time you hear the often-occurring "Oh no, there are giant bees attacking us!" music. It still gets points for originality though. The worst battle system I've encountered would have to be that of (straps on asbestos jacket) Xenogears. So many people love this game, but I really didn't care for it. This is due in part to the uninteresting and ineffectual attacks alotted to your characters, more than half of them only an idiot would use more than once if he wanted to get past the first five minutes. There is no intuition or reason involved, you just go through a boss battle over and over, trying different attacks and different equipment until you beat the dead horse, er- until you beat the boss up. Now, the overall BEST battle system would have to be Suikoden II, not flashy, not ALL that fun, but I never got bored with it, which is rare even in the best of RPGs. Verence- No, it's not Dutch for "venereal disease"

It's difficult to get bored with an RPG like Suikoden, that so easily facilitates handing the chore of fighting off to a quick & dirty auto-beat option. Not to mention it's fun to watch the melees that invariably ensue.

Well, obviously

Obviously, the best battle system belongs to Chrono Trigger. Yes, it's really just a modified ATB system, but it's the areas built around it that really make it stand out. There are no psychadelic transitions from meeting with the enemy to the actual battle -- The menu pops up and you rumble on the spot. The possibility of combining attacks with one or both of your other party members to create double and triple attacks comes in handy all the time. The "Active Time Battle ver. 2" lets you choose whether or not enemies will attack on their own if you don't act quickly enough. And -- do I even need to mention it -- NO RANDOM BATTLES. Thank the gods, no random battles! So while Chrono Trigger's battle system is at its core just another version of ATB, it's the way that it was executed that makes it work so well. - Panadero, http://csd.varlew.net

I did heartily enjoy CT's double/triple techs. They did enough to change the classic ATB's strategic dynamic (or lack thereof) to make things interesting again.

Of course, it's a lot easier to keep things interesting when random battles have been disposed of. "NO RANDOM BATTLES" makes my very soul sing, Panadero, and played a huge role in my appreciation of CT and its sequel.

"Co-op-eration... makes it happen...!"

Erin, personally I liked the battle system from Chrono Trigger. It ran on the ATB, but your characters could actually work together and interact. It makes more sense than everybody patiently waiting their turn to attack instead of going in while someone's just been hit.Co-ordinating attacks made sense. I remember playing long hours of CT, actually finding the battles interesting, at least more than a couple others I could mention(Damn you, Vagrant Story! How dare you waste my time!) So Chrono Trigger's battle system's my favorite. Cynical Loner (still waiting for Frog's meter to fill up so I can use "slurp heal(how do they get these ideas for spells anyways)

Ironically, I think the cooperative aspect of CT had me waiting for my characters' turns more impatiently than ever. "Oh, geez.... Ayla's ready but Robo's not.... Should I go it alone or wait for his slow ass?" The tense tapping of fingers rang long & loud every boss battle.

Yes, I had to go and do it. Just for you. *minor CC spoilers*

Erin - Well, you had to go and do it. Now I must sing the praises of the game that I just kursed. I'd say it's a tie between Chrono Cross and the NORMAL Xenogears battles. Both were interactive and dynamic, and both had unique ways of using the 7 stamina points they allowed you to use better and stronger attacks. The element system was ingenious, eliminating the magic point factor, which can be extrememly frustrating. The Deathblow system in Xenogears was just as good. Save up your strength to release as many disgustingly powerful attacks as possible. Xenogears suffered greatly, however, from the gear battles. They took the amazing normal system, twisted it, tacked a fuel limit on it, and made you use it twice as much. Back to CC, what makes its system the best (OK, so it's not REALLY a tie...) was the fact that you didn't have to use it at all if you didn't want to. There are only four or five "random" battles I saw that HAD to be completed, and most of those had ways to sidestep them. And the only boss battle you couldn't get out of was Garai. The one thing about CC's battles...they were too easy. I am used to being five to ten levels below the recommended, and somehow pulling off victory. I don't know how I beat Ultimecia. I would tell my friend Steve how tough a battle was, and he'd ask me my levels. When I told him, he'd wonder how I lived. So I'm used to rough going. I hate leveling up, and do it only when necessary. OS they made a game where you were always strong enough. YAWN. I lost 2x ot the Sky Dragon and once to Garai. That's IT. Of course, I havn't beaten it yet. I got stuck, and bought Golden Sun before I could get to a FAQ.... Anyway, I'd say Golden Sun's is pretty good too. It takes all the normal static battle stuff, and spices it up IMMENSELY with the djinni. Since you do not own it yet, I'll stop here and continue babbling. I suggest you use some ninjas and obtain a copy. Well, that about sums it up... Ray Stryker, annoyed at having to complement the first game to screw him over outside of battle...

Finally, another fan of not levelling up.

I would put Dario forth as an example of CC's not being difficult, because that hellspawn bastard laid the smack down on my dismally low-leveled ass 4 times, but I did attempt him ludicrously early-on, and I can't say anyone else really presented all that much of a chore. Save the final boss if one's taking the necessary approach to get the good ending.... Bleah.

Serge for President!

Hi Erin, The Chrono Cross battle system was it for me. It was elegant in a way similar to chess; at it's foundation were a few simple rules which could be combined and built upon to form a complex network of strategies. The 6 elemental alignments, 3 member party, and status pairs (Strong Mind/Weak Mind, Turn Red/Turn Blue, etc.) made everything fall together just perfectly. Towards the end, I'd be practically grinning as I had each character take turns in the lead, with the others supporting by casting opposing status effect spells on attacker and target. Half of the fun for me was setting up my party so that I could determine an enemy's weakness and exploit it on the fly. Of course, the other half was actually battling. I'd never felt so rewarded for having a gameplan in an RPG since I first started playing them (DW1, boyo). Sure, you could play the tedious hack-and-heal game with bosses, but it was much more effective and fun to tear into them with a killer element strategy. All this, and No Random Battles. I could go on and on, but I'm sure other people will write in and cover the other bases. But umm, since I missed yesterdays topic, could I add that I thought the N64 Zeldas' puzzles were great? Firing an arrow through a torch off of a rotating platform at a series of ice covered switches? Absolutely delicious! -lowtech: Erin for President!

I'm really running out of stuff to say, you know. These letters all make their points pretty well. So you'll excuse me if I just go over here to cry in my pool of vomit, won't you?

Um, yeah. Delicious.

Huh?

You dissed Earthbound. I hate you. - The point

Er...?

Dude, you'll have to excuse me. I've dissed the horrible clod of mold-ridden filth and triteness that is the Mother series so many times, it's difficult for me to recall just one instance.

Seriously, what the hell? The only time I even mentioned it was to include it in the list of favorite games I puked forth with my personal introduction.

If I had the time I'd make an "honorary Q-tip presentee" award or something to better convey my blown-away-edness at these weird accusations. Bah. Kids these days. They pay more attention to school than they do to the serious persuit of gaming.

Closing Comments:

Damn but that was long. Is it over? Can I go now? Is my check in the mail?

Oh, how I wish.

Unfortunately, though, I've forfeited all my human rights and priveleges to the GIA, and so while the rest of you are merrily whipping turkey bones at the game and trippin' on tryptophan, poor old Erin will be parked right here, chipping away at the unending block that is Double Agent for your amusement.

To make my life a little easier, I'm going to give you a relatively fluffy topic for Thanksgiving.

Whip me up a 5-course feast, if you will, of your top 5 favorite games, and tell me briefly why you choose-ed what you chosed.

Or, if you'd rather, turn the assignment ass-about-face and tell me which 5 games make your intestines wanna leap up your neck and throttle your brain to make the hurting stop.

Easy, non?

See you tomorrow, then, at which time I'm gonna laugh my ass off at just how many notches you've all let out your belts, you squealing piggies you.

-Erin Mehlos, glad she wasn't pardonned