Famitsu interviews producers of Metal Gear Solid and Vagrant Story

[04.03.00] » Publically attack Kojima and Matsuno with questions!

   The GIA would like to thank Jan Rameken for the use of this translation. He clearly has generous genes.

Yasumi Matsuno: Joined Quest in 1989. Created "Densetsu no Ogre Battle" (Legend of Ogre Battle) and "Tactics Ogre" for the SNES. In '95, after moving to Square, created "Final Fantasy Tactics" and subsequently, "Vagrant Story".

Hideo Kojima: Joined Konami in 1986. Designed games "Snatcher" and "Policenauts", which reflected his ambitious view of infusing games with a cinematic quality. He also is the father of the Playstation game "Metal Gear Solid".

In the game industry, each day carries a dramatic accomplishment with it. In such an industry, Mr Yasumi Matsuno produced a game, "Vagrant Story" which in this very magazine got a perfect 40 score! On the desire to ask him on his opinions about designing games, we had him face reputed Games Director Hideo Kojima - The dream of both creators finally together in a discussion is now a reality!

Hideo Kojima (hereon, 'Kojima'): The first time I met Matsuno-san was in the Tokyo "Fanta" of '98 (Tokyo International Fantastic Film Festival). I was lining up for about 8 hours in order to watch the opening of a film called "Vampire" and on the spiral staircases of the Shibuya Pantheon, there I met him.

Yasumi Matsuno (hereon, 'Matsuno'): That's right. I never thought that we would meet in a place like that.

Kojima: On those stairs all we did was talk about movies. Since he too was the kind of person that could stand in a queue in order to watch a movie he likes, I thought I must have found someone with the same genetic makeup as me, so we were able to discuss several things.

- When was the first time that you (Director Kojima) knew of something Matsuno had produced?

Kojima: It was "Legend of Ogre Battle". I remember thinking how the picture could be so beautiful on a game made on the SNES. Without depending much on the hardware the game was perfectly directed. To me he seemed like a person who first thinks of a game system, then of a scenario that can be digested by it and that fits properly, and then uses the specs of the available hardware to the maximum to direct the final product. Even if it's a game for PS2, I think the most important part of a game is its direction. And by this I don't mean the direction involved in cinematography, rather the direction that creates a place that carries the player away - the creation of an atmosphere. I thought he was the kind of person that could accomplish such a thing.

Matsuno: Still, I think that different people have different ways of making things… I personally have a strong desire to monopolise my productions, I really have the desire to make something from beginning to the end. Whether you want to call it a product or "goods", to be able to visualise the face of the maker of a certain thing rarely happens. I think that director Kojima is, in that sense, one of those rare people in this industry. Therefor, I have been playing his games ever since "Snatcher".

- Did you (Director Kojima) personally ever play "Vagrant Story"?

Kojima: I'm sorry (laughs). The staff [at Konami] all play it, but me… I sort of thought, "This might be an unwise thing to do…" as soon as I saw the opening scene of "Vagrant" (laughs).

Matsuno: By "unwise" you mean…?

Kojima: No, no, I mean, "It might be unwise to get too involved in playing this…" (laughs).

Matsuno: Still, I always want to try and play Director Kojima's productions because they carry some sort of policy, or rather, consistency. Of course this doesn't mean that although one sees Kojima's product, one can also see his personality. This is naturally because games aren't things that recite the way a person is. However, in his games, there is always a "Kojima Taste" drifting around that no one can ever imitate. As a creator myself, that is something I have always yearned for. Since I don't really consider myself as a game creator. I am a businessman creating plans for a product. I think its natural that I kill my individuality and feel more inclined towards pleasing above everything else our clients… I know that's how it should be, but in spite of that, just doing so would be boring. I want to leave something behind, somewhere, even if it's just 1 percent of something else. One can really feel that Director Kojima's games are steaming with such a scent. It is something I also have to learn from.

- I think that both your products have a sort of common element about them. Both of you have donated your games with a cinematic sense of direction, but is this something you have done consciously so?

Kojima: That's right. Since our generation received a lot from movies, that something still is left behind in us unconsciously. I usually call that the "Movie genes" (laughs).

- Movie genes?

Kojima: Myself, as someone who grew up with movies, whatever I shape with clay, because of the "Movie genes", takes the form of something movie-like. Just like those people who grew up with Manga, create things with a taste of Manga. Thinking of it inversely, when you consider that future game creates will have grown up playing simply games, its kind of scary to think that no new element will be introduced into game designing in the future. Rather than saying that we are conscious about movies, it would be more accurate to say that the result of people, who create games and grew up watching movies, will be close to movies themselves.

- Did you acquire this sense of movies naturally?

Kojima: Since I unconsciously understand things such as cool or beautiful compositions and stylish lighting, that is probably influencing me in some way or another. That unconscious "something" filters down into each product.

Matsuno: I think that's the people involved in making games like both movies and love manga, so many different "genes" are probably being drawn together. Just like there are do many different directions in which movies can go. In "Vagrant Story" I was mostly uninvolved in the direction. I left that responsibility to a person called Akiyama, but if you were to speak with him you'd see he also loves movies as I do. If you work together with people who carry a number of "genes" which are much alike to your own, without realising you both draw together the same feeling for the final product. This is why, in this sense, even without being in control of the direction, in the selection of personnel for graphics, sound, programming and such you try to gather together as many people with these common "genes". This is why its extremely interesting to have been able to co-ordinate this and convey your feelings on things to various people.

Kojima: What isn't good with the games industry nowadays is that there are products that at the time of making CG movies, the movie element is left aside and the rest is just projected as it is. This is disappointing for people who see these. However, Matsuno-san's products are different. His excellent staff that share his same "genes" deliver even after the digestion of the original concepts. This is the true heart of the producer.

- Great games are made when the creator assembles an excellent staff about him.

Kojima: The staff's strength is something great. I have never seen game graphics as beautiful as those in "Vagrant Story". We looked with the development staff for defects, wondering if there were any at all in the game (laughs). But even the first person part of the game is well done. That was bothersome, wasn't it?

Matsuno: It was! (laughs)

- By bothersome you mean…?

Kojima: The image shown when the perspective is seen from the player's point of view. Such a first person mode was also included in "Metal Gear" even though everyone was against it, both programmers and designers.

Matsuno: That's right, that's right.

Kojima: Basically this was because places you didn't want the player to see, would be freely available to observe.

Matsuno: Yes that's right. That's right.

Kojima: Since it meant that polygons had to be applied also to the inverse side of objects it was quite a dangerous gamble. When one says that the games graphics are great, its mainly because in most cases the camera angle is fixed. But in "Vagrant" the camera angle isn't always fixed… so said our staff, and when they understood the existence of the first person view, we all felt admiration.

- As far as the picture of the game is concerned, visually it has to be fit for the same quality, right?

Kojima: That's right. When we decided to implement that part tightly, the production period went up from 3 times as long to 4 times as long (laughs).

Matsuno: There are a lot of masochists in our staff. Even in the circumstances when specifications are bound by limits, they can make nice food. Rather than making food from a large selection of lined up ingredients, they will open the fridge and casually find dried-up fish, and from what they have they make delicious food, although we call it "Masochistic food". When someone says "This can't be used" someone else says "But we can still use this!" All members of out development team carry with them such a disposition (laughs).

- You are blessed with a great staff!

Kojima: And also blessed with a great company!

- Finally, I would like to ask both of you what direction both of you will take from now on.

Kojima: Matsuno-san, what is your following project?

Matsuno: As you will know, since there is Square's plan of PlayOnline together with the PS2, it will inevitably be related to that. IT won't be something you can call a package, it most likely will be something involving an online premise that we will make little by little. I still don't know myself exactly what it will be. What about you, Director Kojima?

Kojima: Naturally, I'll be making games like games are meant to be made. I am doing this also for all the users that have been with me since the beginning. I'm also thinking of making use of the DVD ability of the PS2. Let's just say that Ill be making games closer to something like movies.

Matsuno: I as well, not only want to fulfil the expectations everyone has of what I will do next, but I also want to try and tackle new challenges. Therefor, online games in which users can participate seem naturally charming to me. There, as long as a little bit of my "taste" is implemented, I wouldn't mind making something entirely different… Basically what I mean by this, since we are in the stage of planning, I am not really in a position to talk about.

- Both of you are interested in this "Online Concept", right?

Kojima: As a personal interest, you could naturally say so, yes. Kind of like leaving junior school and entering middle school. Right now the game industry is like it is going to the 5th year of junior school. I think that, since we all understand that from now on anyone can enter middle school, we are all thinking about which middle school we are going to go to. If we go to a middle school called PlayOnline, we might eventually pass over through different races and religions. There will be no national borders for fanatics (laughs). As long as you mention several movie titles you can gain a mutual sympathy and have a friendly chat for as long as 3 hours (laughs).

Matsuno: It looks like the not-so-far future will be interesting.

Kojima: First, both of us let's make PS2 game. A maniacally interesting ones as possible (laughs)!

Matsuno: That's a good idea (laughs)!