Disclaimer: The opinions expressed within this column are those of the participants and the moderator, and do not necessarily reflect those of the GIA. There is coarse language and potentially offensive material afoot. There goes the patriarchal neighborhood. Don't say we didn't warn you.

Well, damn. This topic seems to have struck a chord with you people. I couldn't ask for more intelligent, thoughtful. diverse letters.

Well I could but it'd be bratty of me.

Especially considering all the extremely well-written arguments I had to pass up in favor of seeing to it that another viewpoint was represented. Bah. Sucks to be me.

Since this is going to be a long, rough night on the high seas, I'm not going to waste much of our mutual time on an intro. However I wanna briefly thank those of you who've continually written in with messages of praise, encouragement and constructive criticism. In this time of upheaval, when many have expressed a desire to see me swinging from the highest yard arm, it goes a long way toward making me feel less like sticking my head in a bucket. But enough of this. Let's go.

I agree with the entirety of your first paragraph. Nothing to say there.

But ... you don't think Efrate's a feminist, huh?

Well well. Coincidentally, neither does he.

Feminists are infested with cooties, anyway

Erin, Just toi clarify, my letter wasn't intentionally feministic...in fact I think a majority of the whole movement thingie is crap. I agree with equality in all things. I do not agree with dwelling on it, giving any special privilages or whatnot because of past injuries, etc etc etc. It all should be nice and dead equal and no more, anythign else keeps us all under the hood of bias. And about my letter, I wasn't goign for the more she can do it gurl powa! kinda thingie, but I actual think the idea for the game is horribly overdone, and I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who is that helpless when they could be different. Die. Please. I'll do it. Give me a stick, sword, amonia and bleach, etc etc etc. Sure you might not swing the stick as hard as a "horney kid" but get yerself a nice edged weapon of just kick the crap outta whatever comes along. As for not being able to kill yer mom (if that is what thw Queen is as I said I haven't played it), if mine was trying to kill me I'd be damn sure to come out swining and not stop till she did. Not resisting because someone is trying to kill you out of remorse, self-pity, love, or anything is plain foolhardy in my opinion. You do no noe any favors by dying. Least of all yerself. Efrate, Kefka's not-so-distant-misanthropic cousin, and Golbez's other brother.

And just to clarify, "feminism" by definition merely refers to the social, economic, and political equality of women and men. I wasn't branding you as a "feminist" in some extreme sense of the word. While I may have misread the upshot of your letter, you apparently thought Yorda should be perfectly capable of swinging a stick herself, something that falls in line with what I define as feminism. I don't believe women should be given special treatment -- "fair-weather" feminists suck ass.

Anyway, this is a minority reaction to ICO in general that I thought deserved printing. Not all of us are as easily touched by a sniveling collection of polygons in need.

The Neocount certainly isn't.

Just throw her in a lake somewhere and let's get out of here

Erin, Seeing as how I've spent most of my time with the game trying to get Yorda killed, you probably shouldn't take my thoughts on the matter too seriously. Now, on one hand, I really don't much care for the idea of having to save a helpless princess. In fact, as I mentioned, I'd much rather get her killed. It's a tired idea, and I'd probably be whining about it if every new game coming up featured a helpless princess who needed saving. However, this just doesn't seem to be the case, and I think using this oldest, simplest of stories was probably a fairly good idea in Ico's case. It's a very simple game, so a complex and dramatic plot would be terribly out of place. With that in mind, using a theme that's so old and familiar to many gamers seems appropriate. It's never stopped me from dropping her off of cliffs, though. -The Neocount of Merentha, who is starting to wonder if he'll ever get around to starting that copy of MGS2 on the coffee table.

You're not, by any chance, some type of contract killer, are you? Because if such is the case, I've got a lengthy Christmas list I'd like to discuss if you've got the time....

Various Assorted Doubts

First off I want to say that I was very doubtful about you at first. When I first heard about The GIA hiring you I thought they might have put you in just so they didn't look like sexists since the only person they have ever fired from the letters column was a female. Well apparently that was pretty stupid thinking because you do seem to be quite good. You definitely have the great insight and humor that made Drew and Jones the great letters guys they were. "How much longer will carrying the damsel in distress back home to Daddy's castle be able to stay afloat in today's market?" Longer than you might think. Seeming as most console RPGs are made in Japan, and since last I heard Japan was a little bit more backwards (compared to the U.S.) about the whole equality with women thing, I think it might stick around a little bit more than we want it to. That is, unless, Americans somehow make an uprise and capture the console RPG market and make more games like the PC RPG Septerra Core, a RPG that had the same type of gameplay as a typical turned based console RPG but with a strong female main character that didn't fit any typical RPG video game female stereotypes (one of the main creators of the game was female too fyi). Pendy head maintainer of the Dragon Quest Dragon Warrior News Network

Funny, I was doubtful about me at first, too. But, surprise surprise. The token female is developing a knack.

Interesting conundrum you address there, hey.

Now, allow me to delve into a subject I know absolutely nothing whatsoever about and marvel at just how much of my leg I can cram into my mouth after swallowing the whole of my foot.

You're certainly right in that, if weak women are entrenched in the Japanese vision of how games should be, then no, it's probably not going away anytime soon.

But I'm confused by the veritable tide of powerful women seen in anime. Ryoko, Naomi Armitage, Maris, Mink. For all her domestic inclinations, even the goddess Belldandy completely overshadows her love interest in terms of power and dependence.

Granted, all the characters I've listed here are not even technically human, and you could say that its easier for the Japanese to accept women in strong roles when there's some unearthly source for their strength. Nevertheless, if anime is any indicator, the Rising Sun is fascinated with powerful women.

Why do we not see that manifesting itself more often in games?

I'd welcome any insight, or a stomach pump to get the Nike cross-trainer out of my gut.

Stage 2: Denial

Erin, First, I fully support the way in which you say you will run Double Agent. If you run the column by focusing on meaningful and balanced debate, I may even start to read regularly again. DA needs someone who, again, respects the position and its role. Sorry for that...now the topic! Stereotypes of poor, defenseless women have been used for a long time. Certainly, Ico is not the first story, or even videogame, to play upon this hasty generalization. So, is it okay? Well...yes. Ico is set in a pre-modern age. The story simply would not have worked otherwise. The people of the Ico's village would not have had the same ignorant beliefs had they been able to utilize modern science and technology. Given its setting, the game should attempt to capture the atmosphere and attitudes of its time rather than attempt to adhere to modern political correctness. It is a fact that women were subordinated to men throughout history in the period prior to the twentieth century. Whether or not this ideology was justified is irrelevant with regard to Ico. What is relevant is that this is how people thought at the time. To pretend otherwise amounts to ignorance. The fact is, nobody would accept a story wherein the roles were reversed and Ico was stuck in the castle and Yorda had to rescue him (and lead him by the hand). Ico does not "reinforce negative stereotypes toward woman," rather it simply validates human history. smorange, hoping the new DA won't update quite so late

smorange was the one of very few to make this particular yummily valid point.

It's all very well and good for we railers against patriachal society to stick our heads in a bowl of fluffy pink raspberry-flavored denial, but the fact of the matter is, until very recent history, women WERE the weaker sex. Period.

And for all the freedoms and equalities enjoyed by women in many Western and European countries, in many parts of the world, that hasn't changed.

Even someone born and raised in a bubble, happily oblivious to this ugly truth, can turn on the news at this particular juncture in current events and be bludgeoned over the head with it by the images of women in Kabul dancing in the streets, rejoicing in the liberty of not being forced to cover their faces, for crissakes.

You could conceivably liken feminist bitching over the matter of subordinate women in games meant to mirror an age of human history to the Jewish population protesting a medium depicting the Holocaust and the historical oppression of their people.

Wheeee! but this is a thought-provoking topic!

Pft. Just see if I rescue you.

Erin - A majority of gamers are men (not 90 percent or anything, but still a majority). And while not all of us are necessarily hard-luck losers in the game of love, it's always cooler to imagine ourselves as heroes to the women in our lives (as opposed to desperate lapdogs). In videogames, we can save the world and get the girl. We can fulfill stereotypical aspirations of masculinity and manly worth. Even if we won't admit it to others or to ourselves, I think that sense of masculine fulfillment is a part of many male gamers emotional reaction to their games and I think it's very appealing. After all, developers create these plots because they sell well. I mean, would a woman be as fulfilled by saving the prince as a man would be by saving the princess? Do you ladies dream about coming to the rescue of your boyfriends? As Austin Powers said "... And be honest." JC "The Procrastinator"

I can only speak for myself, but yes. In all honesty, I wouldn't mind occasionally saving the prince.

Obviously, I can see why you don't want to be a desperate lapdog. But if, by allowing yourself to depend on another person, you become a desperate lapdog, and if you, in your refusal to do so always take on the role of hero, isn't that exactly what you're subjugating the woman in your life to?

Freya hangs up her lance in favor of a meat thermometer

I have yet to play ICO. Yeah, I suck. But I have played other games. And it's not like ICO is the first save-the-princess game we've ever seen. Let's talk about FFIX, where, yes, you have Garnet, the princess with emotional issues, and Eiko, the slightly annoying little brat, but you've also got Freya and Beatrix, who might not be purely free of sexist tainting (they do end up romantically involved, and it's even implied that Freya retires), but are certainly strong female figures, and anyway: Garnet becomes Dagger and shows a surprising inner strength, and Eiko isn't that annoying after all. Or Metroid, of which all I need to say is "Samus". Or FFT, where I think Agrias and Meliadoul demonstrate that progress is being made, even as Alma and the princess hark back to ancient days of the girl at the top of the screen. Or FF8, in which Rinoa is a disturbingly helpless throwback to the plot-element female at the same time that Quistis and Selphie at least make a stab at strength. Yes, most gamers are still male, and yes, games are still designed to appeal to them as the demographic that buys. But for every two games like "The BOUNcer", there's a Star Ocean II, and for every DOAII/III, there's a GGX, where the men are bishonen and the women far from eyecandy. (TEACUPS? He's the swordwielding head of the holy knights, and his hobby is collecting teacups?). But hey, this is coming from a guy who's currently working his way through Rhapsody. -- David Siegel

Nicely said.

But I find myself morbidly drawn to that bit about Beatrix and Freya's romantic involvement tagging them as tainted by sexism. Romantic involvement = weakness?

*quietly deletes the mention of her signicant other from yesterday's column*

Echo-location in the chasing of birds

Hey there Erin, I'd never really thought about Ico and feminism. For the most part, feminism = pain in the butt in my book (although I agree with the basic princibles). But have you ever thought about how Ico portrays the blind? As a gamer who has, unfortunately, lost much of his vision to glaucoma (and no, I do NOT smoke weed), I have had the opportunity to meet quite a few totally blind people. And let me tell you, Yorda ain't too convincing as a blind person. If you've ever met someone blind from birth (and I know most people haven't) you'd know what I was talking about. Here's another issue: Ico grabs Yorda by the arm and yanks her along. Folks, if you ever meet a blind person, never ever EVER grab them and pull them, and for God's sake, DON'T TOUCH THEIR WHITE CANE! For the most part, blind people are perfectly capable of getting around themselves. The appropriate thing to do would be to offer them your arm and guide them that way. Anyway, I just thought I would offer you that little tid-bit of information. I doubt you'll hear it from anyone else. Sorry if I sounded preachy. -Tre Perry, defender of blind people everywhere.

I certainly understand your concerns....

But ... Yorda isn't blind...?

While it was initially thought by many before the game's release that such was the case, she clearly responds to Ico's visual cues and tracks his movements as he negotiates the solution to a problem and (when in my control) makes an ass of himself in the process.

So it's perfectly all right to yank her abruptly around by the hand, right?

Round 2: Yorda vs. Camille Paglia

Erin, I know you want to talk about Suikoden III, so let me not deter you too far from the topic. I'd just like to address the question of "helpless" females in video games in general, and ICO in particular. Camille Paglia, June 1996: "The obsession with the female victims in film is, I think, very moralistic and Victorian... I don't believe in the usual conventional feminist view that what is going on is a sadistic desire to dominate the woman. On the contrary, I think that it has to do with woman's emotional importance, her centrality to everyone's lives. Every single individual, male or female, staggers out from the shadow of a mother goddess. So we are obsessed with the image of woman." Certainly something to think about, and brings a much-needed other side to this question. In the first hour of ICO, Ico saves Yorda. By the middle of the game, they work as a team. By the end of the game, she is saving Ico's sorry ass left and right. You must rely on her as she has relied on you so many times, by making a death-defying leap armed only with the trust that she will grab you at the last second. In short, ICO doesn't follow the pattern; indeed, it specifically breaks it. Chris Kohler

Quoting Camille Paglia, though, can undermine any argument in favor of something's inherent feminism in a hurry -- the essayist is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a friend of feminism or any of its principles. In Vamps and Tramps, one of her essay collections, she dismisses the entire movement as "a catch-all vegetable drawer where bunches of clingy sob sisters can store their moldy neuroses" and recommends we "get rid of Infirmary Feminism, with its bedlam of bellyachers, anorexics, bulimics, depressives, rape victims and incest survivors."

To which I say: "Paglia, were she still alive, De Beauvoir would cream your brainwashed ass."

Did I mention she loves pedophiles?

But anyway, you make very good points with which I have to agree, even conceding that, despite Paglia's historical stance on all things feminist or pro-"modern woman", Chris' quote, taken out of the context of the woman herself, nicely does its job. ICO has no single "hero" rescuing a 100% hapless victim; instead, Yorda and Ico work increasingly as a team as the game progresses, but I don't really have to go into this, because this next letter does so quite in-depth. Quite, quite in-depth.

Debunking the "overly long letters don't get printed" myth

Hey Erin. Granted this is a bit off topic (and long winded :P), but I found yesterdays column to contain a few notable generalizations that I really needed to comment on. Primarily, the notion that cliches and over emphasized use of demographics ultimately limit the effectiveness of videogame immersion just seems a bit half-baked to me. While obviously cliches can offend, and they can deter general opinions, mostly it's all a matter of perspective and not some inherent detractor. To elaborate, you must make quick distinction between visual and literary cliches. ICO is a common offender of visual cliches, and though not extensively, it illustrates a helpless princess and a brave boy escaping a castle by hands way in a convenient, template fashion. Contrarily, in attempts to escape the baseline literary cliches that would write the prince-boy as some muscle bound, cocky, sword wielding charmer, and the princess as a completely useless, dimwitted Blondie. This isn't the case at all with ICO, as neither are victim of such sweeping and unintelligent cliches. What I will say is that there is a mutual relationship and need between the characters, ICO and Yorda. Neither dominates nor takes a center of importance beyond the one sided control. Both are needed to get out of the castle, and both are frail yet strong in there own ways. This is as far from the sexiest under handing that society has played up in games since the very beginning with stuff like Mario Bros., and while looks my tip you off otherwise, ICO doesn't really fall pray to the shallowness of Hollywood sensibilities. The tie in: perspective. While someone like Efrate my find that the clearly labeled princess and prince mockery insulting, unemotional and without note, another person may be grabbed by the depth of it's underlining execution. Pushing forward, Justin Freeman commented on how a female may take negatively to the frailty of Yorda's character, and the themes of friendship and love in general based on this lopsided take. Now I for one don't think Yorda is a helpless little girl, especially when you consider ICO as a whole but let me offer a similar slice of logic. -Philadelphia, with Tom Hanks and Antonio Banderas. While this isn't quite the same as the above (ie: not really cliched), the logic of limited interest can be applied. By this sense, only a homosexual could truly understand the love pinned throughout the whole movie because of the circumstance, which is a complete con if you ask me. Wide spread themes like "love", "friendship", and "betrayal" are not gender biased, regardless of the circumstance. That said, I don't see how women would be any different in the taking of Yorda's character then a male simply because of the way she looks in conjunction with baseline demographics. She isn't just a helpless little character, and her portrayal, that of a kind, mysterious princess of off hear is not the sort of thing that only a male could understand, like, care for, or apply. I mean if a beloved women actress died, would males inherently feel for that lose more… because they're male? I certainly hope nothing as sexiest as that is being implied here. To be short and concise, visual perimeters should never make or break how compatibility a character is to its audience. Writing cliches, IMO, are far more of a problem in the relating of on screen characters to real life people, and ICO doesn't suffer from that sort at all. Secondly, cliches do not broad themes effect, not in my opinion, not if there as shallow as simple visualization whoring. Hope that made some sense… I've been known to sound like a loon sometimes. Oh and good luck as DA agent *^_^*. ~Lil' Moogle-san

...

... ...

That was a lot -- I mean, a whole HELLUVA lot to digest in one sitting.

But, like various heavily fibrous foods, bravely doing so can be quite benefical and I highly recommend it, because that was a thorough (and I emphasize the word thorough) argument.

I agree that ICO, replete as it is with visual clichés (which was even touched on in Chris' ICO column), is not a perpetrator of gender role stereotyping. Most definitely not to the degree that many (dare I say "most?") games have been in the past.

But if you're of the school of thought that believes the male of the species is hard-wired to be compelled to rescue a female in danger, then certainly you have to speculate that while perhaps not completely uneffective, ICO just cannot carry the same weight with a female audience that it does with its target male demographic.

On the OTHER hand....

My sentiments exactly

"I've always wanted to know how it resonated with the female part of the audience. Namely, the game is seemingly built to touch base with a male demographic. Yorda is obviously the basis of the game's trademark emotional attachment, but I wonder how much of that stems from the whole "helpless, pained girl in need of help" thing." Strange. That never even occurred to me. You see, when I played ICO, I didn't think to myself "Ho ho, I see a woman in need of a man's help, like all women! I shall have to lead her around like the cowardly weakling she is! Oh, truly I am a manly, manly man, as all men!" Instead I thought "Oh my gawd, a _real human being_ is in distress and needs help. Don't screw up now." So methinks the feminism is a bit unwarranted in this case. The game's impact was derived from making its characters appear _alive_, not from exploiting traditional patriarchal stereotypes or whatchamacallem. Besides, even if Yorda was weak and feminine, Ico himself certainly was the direct opposite of the epitome of masculinity. The game was about two weak people who both needed each other's help to get the hell out of a situation they were both very ill-suited to be in - not about some buff he-man rescuing the spandex-clad chix left and right. ===== Sephiroth Katana

This is where I part with my role as Devil's Advocate and say what I thought of ICO. Enough about you people's needs, dammit.

This letter sums up my personal feelings pretty well.

Whatever your views on the male role as protector, there is a drive to protect the young and the defenseless in all of humanity. And that's how I saw both Yorda and Ico: young and defenseless, in need of protecting, and in need of each other.

My hesitation to leave Yorda behind was absurdly real. That lingering risk of her being dragged off before her meek little yell would bring me rushing back plagued me every second she was out of sight.

The simplicity of Ico and Yorda's mutually dependant friendship is a powerful theme, and ICO is one hell of a game, gender and all its issues be damned.

Finishing what he started

Erin, Ok, since this issue was partially derived from my earlier letter, I feel obliged to present my feelings on the topic. Away we go. I think the easiest way to attack the whole issue of Ico's possible use of subtle, and likely unintentional anti-feminism (or stereotype enforcing, or antiquated viewpoint, etc.) is logically. Yorda is helpless, especially compared to Ico, because while he is an energetic pre-pubescent male, she is an (presumably) older female, possibly non-human, and has spent an undisclosed amount of time locked in a cage. This is all going to add up to her not being nearly as self-sufficient as Ico. The other part to this logical battle, then, is to ask why a female was used, and not a male. This one's even easier to address: Ico is a game, and the majority of gamers are male, so its all just a demographics thing. So, logically, it all makes sense. But hell, what fun would it be if that's all we looked at? The other issue is that perhaps the developers just naturally thought it would make more sense for a female to need assistance, and a male to provide it--i.e., the whole "damsel in distress" thing. I'm afraid that possibly the only way to do away with this idea is to either have more females game directors, or a much bigger female gaming audience. I just don't know if there's a solution without one of those factors, unfortunately. But I'll be damned if I don't excuse Ico; frankly, its a hell of an emotional experience, and that can't be said for the majority of games that have you rescuing the Princess, so to speak. Plus, it could even be argued that the notion that Ico can't get anywhere without Yorda overtly promotes a decidedly more appropriate theme. Either way, much like the rest of the game, its all pretty ambiguous anyway. -Justin Freeman

Rather than make mine the last word on the subject, though, I think I'll just hand the whole affair over to Jennifer, who's got the bottom line nicely covered:

Tying things up in a neat little -- okay, a neat, if somewhat large, bow

There are very legitimate times to be angry or upset at patriarchy, at the way women are depicted, or used, or enslaved....and I am pretty fierce with regard to such issues. One thing that bothers me greatly, though, is when people seem to find oppression when there is none to be seen. When this occurs, it makes a mockery of the times when real anger is called for, and is rather silly and annoying as well. Case in point is of course ICO, where the complaint is that the old chestnut of 'Heroic Boy Saving Wimpy Princess' is seen. This patriarchal monster is not in the closet, kids, all you are seeing is shadows. Frankly I am shocked that anyone who has actually played ICO could possibly reach such a conclusion...apparently paying attention is a lost art. The entire basis, the play mechanic, the point of ICO is mutuality. Equality. An equal balance of boy and girl, utterly dependent on each other, neither more important, or less, than the other. Ico cannot progress, save the game, or do anything at all without Yorda, and Yorda cannot survive or escape without Ico. Ico is stronger, Yorda has vitally required powers. Ico can haul and tote and serve, yet Yorda is the point of the whole game. Anything can happen to Ico...but if Yorda is taken, or dies, everything, the whole world of the game, ends. Yorda is a heroic character. Abused, entrapped, isolated, kept in a cage, the expected behavior of such a person as Yorda would be total withdrawal and constant terror. Utter lack of trust, and an inability to face anything. Instead, despite lacking even the knowledge of what sunshine is, having never seen a bird, or having met another soul but her mother (and some silent ghosts), Yorda steps from her fallen cage and helps Ico up. She faces a constant unknown with not a helpless fear, but trust in spite of the terror, and a determination to survive and escape. She does this without even knowing what the world might be...she wants freedom so very much. Yorda leaps chasms of certain death to grasp the hand of a boy smaller than herself, and works magic despite obvious terror. Courage is not being fearless, it is doing what has to be done despite fear. No one who has caught Yorda from falling to her doom in ICO could for a moment doubt the strength of her character. I have faced death many times in my 41 years, but I doubt I could be persuaded to do some of the stunts Yorda does, even for one of my spouses. In the end of the game, it is not the boy Ico that saves Yorda, but rather Yorda who saves the boy. As the castle of her mother shatters around them both, consumed by the fire of corrupted souls, sure of her own death, Yorda literally throws Ico into a boat, and muscles the craft out to sea. During the game she has gone from courageous innocent to a powerful woman capable of making any sacrifice to save the life of another. Then, rather than meekly waiting to die, she somehow finds a way to make it to shore on her own anyway. To do this she would have had to fight off the attack of the spirits engulfing her, avoid a crushing death by the fall of the castle, and survive a long swim from far out at sea. This is not a wimpy princess figure. Yorda may be lacking in knowledge because of her abused life, but she does not for a moment let that stop her. Ico, the boy, certainly climbs and whacks monsters with a stick. What people fail to see, I think, is that they are not playing the central character of the story. They are playing the part of the catalyst for the central character, who in the end is not their prize to win, but rather the savior that saves the day when they, the player, cannot. ICO is cannot rationally be seen as patriarchal. Indeed, if anything, it takes the central myth of patriarchy, the man-who-saves-the-woman and in the end deconstructs it. A shallow assessment would yield the old myth, but paying attention shows that it is the woman who ultimately saves both herself, and the supposed 'hero' of that same myth. Jennifer Diane Reitz UnicornJelly.com

See? After that, I'm pretty much superfluous.

Moving on to matters at hand

Greetings New DA-er, Sorry but I just cannot simply join in on your ICO chat today. Some of us have been there, done that, saved the little pale waif from the shadow ooze demon things... today those of us that are almost 'H4RdC0R3 g4m3RZ' but not quite were out there braving the cold, the wind, the crowds and the clueless store clerks on one of the few, almost holiday-like days of the year. A video game console launch day. XBox day. So what if I don't like Microsoft, or that the XBox only has maybe two titles I want to play for it. I hit the kiosks up pretty hard the past few weeks scoping out the two new competitors for my beloved PS2 and became enamored with a Tron-like mini game on Fusion Frenzy. But it wasn't until my significant other mentioned he would indeed take an Xbox for a Christmas present on the way home from work today did the saga begin. Toys R Us had a line out front almost two hours before opening, Target sold all theirs ten min after opening, Toy Works (KB for some of you schmucks) were only selling theirs in packages (isn't that against the law???), Circuit City blew their (rather small) load within minutes of opening... then we stopped at the biggest hole-in-the-wall place in the area. An out of the way Kmart. We milled about the store, wasting almost two hours of our life only to find out that the shipment they recieved while we were there (literally awaiting arrival of the UPS truck) contained a total of two Xboxes and we were fourth on their morning list. A beautiful thing eh? WalMart was hit up last, and their few systems were also gone. So discouraged we ended our journey, giving up to come home for a few late morning calls around to other places in the area... Just wait until Sunday... another system with few to no interesting games, and the adventure will continue! Thus ends the story of insane people searching for a console they don't even really want, just for the sake of owning it.... for the magic of finding that rare gem... Cheers RainStark2k

Thanks for the reminder.

Try me. I triple dog dare you.

-Erin Mehlos, off to stick people with pointy metal objects