I'm not terribly keen on Dragon Quest, but not for lack of style or endless stat-building - I just really have a problem with text-based battle systems. You once mentioned back in your LoD review that an FMV clip of a stationary map was an absolute waste, and booting up a complex piece of software to do nothing but read seems just as pointless to me. When endless text is the most visceral thrill a game can offer, I'll just stick to reading books. Actually, if I can at least see my character actually doing something, even if my control over him is menu-based, I feel a bit more involved (and therefore, more interested) than I would if I were reading a play-by-play. Come to think of it, that probably explains my distaste for first-person shooters, as well.

-SonicPanda

I'll say from the start i'm on the "Dragon Warrior and Lunar" side of the spectrum as I run www.dqshrine.com But I'm going to give my opinion anyway despite being biased =P Alright here goes my guess at why the sides are usually plainly drawn. Let's look at Dragon Warrior first... Only "Okay" graphics. Nothing extradionary, not flat out bad but just in the middle. This is what turns off everyone on the Final Fantasy side as FF has excellent if not the best graphics seen on Console RPG's. Point Number 2 - Akira Toriyama, Dragon Warrior has him and he really makes the game shine, without him they're probably wouldn't even be this discussion. His monsters and character make the game very charming. This is an area I think Final Fantasy lacks, lame monster designs (except chocobo, moogle etc). Point #3 - Dragon Warrior games are set in trilogies, stories that continue and link to each other, while Final Fantasy is a whole different game each time. I like the games linking, that's why I love Dragon Warrior 3, wraps up lots of loose ends while Final Fantasy leaves you wondering, just depends which way you like it. Point #4 - Final Fantasy is anything but Fantasy now, more like Final Sci-Fi, which is fine. Dragon Warrior on the other hand is totally medievil, (as is Lunar, just using that from your statement in closing comments). The early Final Fantasies I really enjoyed more than the later ones. 7 was awesome but I just couldn't get into it as much as I did the others. 8 totally blew chunks, 9 was great as well since it made lots of refrences to past games and was more medievil (Which I like) but nobody else seemed to really like it. My last point is point 5, probably the one thing FF and DW have in common. They're storylines are good, but not great. Neither has had a groundbreaking storyline. DW's are pretty basic (kill the evil, save the princess) while FF likes to pull trippy end scenes and last bosses out of magic hats with no warning (something that really annoys me). Like I said earlier, this is just my reasoning why the lines are clearly drawn, FF and DW are really two totally different types of RPG and I don't think that will ever change, and that's a good thing. We need something to argue about you know? =)  

Thanks

-Dustin Hubbard

Consider: before the remakes came out, the last taste of Dragon Warrior we got in the States was in 1992. I can imagine Final Fantasy players who weren't even born in 1992, as scary as it is to envision. Meanwhile, I think the majority of vocal Final Fantasy devotees (those that haven't become dissatisfied with the series lately) started on FF7, the first really popular one here. That's almost four years, an eternity in the world of consoles.

So the more recently-initiated FF fanatics can feel that they are experienced in the ways of the RPG. The probably have enough experience with recent RPGs to know that DQ is not like them, and therefore not what they like. And there are probably stories floating around from older siblings' friends about how DQ1 or 2 was all about endless random battles and leveling, which is a major turn-off. Can you imagine how horrible people who've never experienced load time-free battles must think forced leveling is?

While the FF feeling toward DQ seems to be just general disinterest, though, the vocal DQ fans seem to actively hate FF and all that it's become, the interactive movies with pathetically easy battles. FF illustrates the decline of gameplay, or something. (Note: Try giving a FF game to someone who's new to RPGs, even an experienced gamer. See how easy they find the battles.) This echoes the relations between the entrenched and casual gamer perfectly.

So, that's why there's so little overlap between the communities. Being in both pretty much requires that you've been gaming at least since DW4, and that you still like modern console RPGs. Given the human tendency for nostalgia, this is pretty rare. Rarer still is a person like this willing to be vocal in a world of devoted FF fans and equally devoted FF haters.

-Jesse

Oh and on a side note, I have never played a DW game........

I don't see it. I really don't. I know plenty of people who like DW at least as much as FF, and even know one person who likes it more, though I am not sure what kinda crack he is smoking. Obviously I prefer FF, but I very much enjoy DW.

DW is HARD. Even if you consign hard to having to level up for a battle/dungeon beforehand, the technology and will weren't there before, so you cna write most of that off. Yes DW is very heavily game-play orientented, but with VI it proved it can have a stunning story that rivals and even surpasses some FFs. Also you gotta respect it because from it FF started.

IN DW, you also get a better sense of accomplishment not really felt since smacking down Chaos, or Zeromous (hey I was like 10 at the time, he was hard ;-). Every dungeon is a trial, many making the dreaded marsh and ice caves seem simple. Anyone else remember that cave under the castle with the King who you needed to use the Mirror of Ra on from DWIII? Or most any of the dungeons in DWIII that are in the underworld? Or EVERY friggin dungeon in DWII, and almost all of then in DW1? Beating on of these dungeons, or beating a boss, nets a huge feeling of accomplishment. While replaying DWIV the other day I actually had to try multiple times to beat a boss, it was an amazing feeling, something that has been sorely lost.

Now after all this, you people are wonder who can I like FF more. Thats fairly simple. I play FF for stories and characters. And kewl job classes (umm...calculators). But I play DW for challenge, and for gameplay. I like good stories and I like good gameplay. Hopefully either (or both) DQ VII and FFX make both work.

-Efrate, wondering why there isn't a merchant class in FF; Taloon was the shiznit.

I think there are a couple of reasons why most people won't both like DQ and FF.

Firstly, people will mostly have gotten into RPGíng with the one or the other. This means that what they like about RPGing was more or less defined by this first playing experience. So, when they played the other game, all the differences seemed like shortcomings.

Secondly, because everyone KNOWS already there's this war going on between DQ and FF, people feel forced to flock to one side or the other. Opinions about both games being good are frightfully dull, after all.

But why has this war started in the first place? That's because both games can be seen as the start of RPGing as we know it now. But only ONE of the two games can be the MOST influential, so only ONE of the two camps could be the most hardcore! Hence the debate.

Lastly, in the previous generation of consoles, the series have really gone their separate ways. While FF continues to become more and more cinematic with each installment, the only DQ game to appear sticks to its tried and tested formula. They're complete opposites now, which, for the first time in history, makes it logical that one doesn't like the one and loves the other.

-Sir Farren, can't join the debate because he's never played a DQ game in his life. Snrf.

That's odd, really...  I happen to really enjoy both the Dragon Warrior series and the Final Fantasy series.  They're so drastically different from each other that I consider playing one to be taking a break from the other.

The only disappointment for me is that I never played anything but DW 1 on the NES as far as Dragon Warrior games go, so when I tried to go back and replay them recently, I could only go in one-hour stretches, and finally got bored due to a lack of direction (DW3 was particularly guilty of this).  The old DW games just don't quite translate well onto a 25" TV with a stereo system.  I fully intend to pick up the recent DW remakes for the Game Boy Advance when I get one; for some reason I'm sure they'll kick ass more now than when I tried several years back.

The FF games, in comparison, I got to play each time when they were still new, and thoroughly enjoyed them all.

Yeah, yeah; so I'm a sucker for cutting-edge graphics, etc.  I'm REALLY looking forward to DWVII though.  That game's going to be awesome.

I can see why some people love one and hate the other, simply BECAUSE they're so drastically different.  It's like the age-old Star Trek vs. Star Wars debate, ya know?  Me, I love both of them, too.  Guess I'm just easily amused or something.

-Chris

I believe that the reason why there's such a heated debate over liking either Dragon Warrior or Final Fantasy comes down to which one the player played first. Of course, this isn't always the case. In my case, I played Dragon Warrior first (I got it through that Nintendo Power promo way back when) and enjoyed it, but fell for the simplistic charms of Final Fantasy and haven't looked at a Dragon Warrior game ever since.

Another possible reason could very well be the same reason why there was a similar debate over which system was better: SNES or Genesis. Each had it's own merits and downfalls, but each had a loyal, if not fanatical, following (although if you compared the technical specifications, the SNES was WAY more powerful than the Genesis - especially in the color palette and displayable colors)

Personally, I enjoy Final Fantasy over Dragon Warrior because I find that over the years, the Final Fantasy series has given players an endearing story complete with memorable characters (Final Fantasy IV comes to mind...) Dragon Warrior, on the other hand (I attempted to play Dragon Warrior II and III a while back) seems to rest in preserving the traditions of old. Despite innovations in the battle engine and character interface, the story still remains much the same: save the world from either the DragonLord of whatever archfiend that happens to be clunkering around the halls of an ancient castle. I have high hopes for Dragon Warrior VII in that from everything I've seen and heard, it looks to be innovative enough and at the same time, breaks away from the tired story (if you could call it that) that plagued the first couple of Dragon Warrior games.

However, playing the devils advocate for a second, Final Fantasy was much the same as Dragon Warrior when it first came out. Except at that point, Dragon Warrior had more of a story than Final Fantasy's "gather the four Orbs of Light to save the world from Chaos" It's just that Final Fantasy evolved while the first couple of Dragon Warrior games stayed the same.

So, in essence, the debate over which one is better comes down to this: Old school, stat driven RPG (Dragon Warrior) or new school, story driven RPG (Final Fantasy).

-Oberon

Having not played any Dragon Warrior games since the original, I've never been big on the FF vs. DW arguments though I have gathered there's a serious, serious either/or mentality out there. Having only played the recent FF's I thought I knew which side I was on, until a recent trip to L.A. On the flight down, I happened to sit next to a Japanese engineer for Honda who, though 43, was eagerly awaiting getting back home to play FFX on his Ps2. Dude later brings up Dragon Quest, and goes on to say that Americans seem to be more with FF because of the cinematic and graphic elements, while he himself rates Dragon Quest as superior in gameplay and story depth. He doesn't hold one *above* the other, enjoying both for what he sees in them. I know this defeats the purpose of the topic, but, hell, why can't we do as a fellow Japanese gamer and just accept the damn games for what they are?

Yrs.,

-TWEEK

But that aside, here's my honest opinion on the subject, being as objective as I can be. Seriously.

It's my genuine belief that the Dragon Quest vs. Final Fantasy debate has really only coalesced in the PSX era as a set of symbols picked up by people who want to call themselves "old school", and people who want to call themselves "progressive". This mostly occurred because FF7 (and subsequent games) took the series (and most of RPGs along with them) in a radical new direction, whereas DQ7, both pre- and post-release, seemed to hearken back to the older style of 16-bit gaming, almost as a protest to what FF was doing. (Had both 7s been released at the same time, this likely wouldn't have been an issue, but with the one coming after the other, it was hard not to see some implicit commentary going on.)

The irony is that I don't believe the debate's valid in any context but the 32-bit era: none of the first 6 DQs were particularly obsessed with holding on to the past, just as none of the first 6 FFs were hellbent on taking the genre where no console had been before. You can certainly compare and contrast the pre-PSX games (DQ6 is significantly bigger than FF6, and DQ4 is probably a better game from a critical standpoint than FF4, although I certainly enjoyed the latter more) but not in the sense of one being "old school" or "FMV-laden crap". (Obviously the distinction's meaningless for an SNES game in the first place.)

Likewise, it doesn't make any sense for the debate to continue in the future: nobody knows what DQ8 will look like yet, but old school or new, I don't think the game's look will be seen as a protest - it'll just be whatever Yuji Horii has decided to make the series look like this time around. And any wild new innovations the FF series comes up with won't be wild and new; rather, they'll just be continuing in the series' new tradition of changing just about everything possible in each succeeding iteration.

The point here is that the debate is over. Nobody really won or lost, but FF's tide of progress (or decadence, depending on your point of view) continues unabated, while DQ7's rock solid Japanese sales suggest that there'll always be a market (on that side of the pond, at least) for the way things have always been... er, used to be. That dog won't hunt, monsignor, so let's bury this puppy and move on.

-Chris Jones, remembering what it was like to view the column as a reader