Good plots and bad hair days -
July 2, 2001 - Chris Jones
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed
within this column are those of the participants and the
moderator, and do not necessarily reflect those of the
GIA. There is coarse language and potentially offensive
material afoot.
Jeez, how am I supposed to follow after an act like that?
Don't say we didn't warn you.
Saw A.I. this weekend, was pretty damned impressed. The reviews are right when they say it's not perfect, but it's about what you'd expect out of Kubrick/Speilberg collaboration, and that's a good thing. None of the characters are particularly likeable, but between the ideas on one side and the sheer spectacle on the other, I was entranced right up until the end. Even afterwards, a lot of the stuff on screen has stayed in my head - written sf has gone far deeper into questions of AI than this movie does, but there's just something about seeing the images that shakes me up. If I could play a video game that provided half the punch this movie did, I'd be a very satisfied customer.
Onward.
| Straight or crooked, it's all in how you travel *Vague Chrono Cross spoilers* |
| --Are game plots getting too complicated? I don't think complicated stories are bad (I loved Xenogears'), but the more complex you get, the harder it is to execute it all well -- which is why games with simpler, less epic stories often end up more endearing.--
Personally, I don't think this is something that should be labeled. I think the 'execute it well' part is all that matters. Who cares if it's complex or not, as long as it works? Yes, something complex is HARDER to execute well (it's called complex for a reason) but that just means there's a larger chance of suckage.
It can be as complex (Chrono Trigger/Cross, Legacy of Kain) or as simple (most Final Fantasies, Castlevania,) as it wants, I really don't care as long as it's interesting.
And on a side note, in response to the letter that inspired the topic, doesn't ANYONE else, anyone at all, actually view Chrono Cross as a simple sidequest to the 'original?'
---Alhazred
|
Frankly, I don't know what to say about this topic because it's pretty damned hard to classify "complex". I know people who still can't figure out the chronological order of the segments in Pulp Fiction, but they have no problems with a game like Vagrant Story, just because they refuse to entertain the same questions on subtle points of narrative that I do.
The letters I got today almost seemed schizoprhenic - one letter would call Xenogears straightforward and Chrono Cross incredibly complex, the next would say the exact opposite. In that situation, all that you really can say is important is that the plot's done well, whatever it is... but that doesn't mean we won't try.
| Finish it *FF 8, 9, CC spoilers* |
| Too complicated? Or just too corn-damned convoluted?
I was never one of the world's premier Xenogears freaks but I did enjoy
the effort at a story. The drooling idiot commented yesterday on the
seemingly never-ending exposition, but it served to hammer into my brain
what the hell was actually happening. CC, with it's kick-ass element
system, sound and graphics, was made totally mediocre IMO with its total
lack of a followable plot thread. I was in orgasmic gaming glee right
up until I set foot in Chronopolis; every cutscene thereafter was a
fight to keep my brain from melting. But I'm only the 4 millionth
person to comment on this.
What I want to know is. . . . Why in the hell does Squaresoft keep
giving up altogether at the end of their games lately? I thought VIII
was moving along splendidly until Ultimecia reared her ugly undeveloped
head and the whole scenario felt to me like it fell apart. Ditto for
IX, round about the time the gang returns from their acidic visit to
Terra. Actually this is kind of what happens in Cross as well. There
you are, hurtling down this track which suddenly ends and sails you off
into obscurity. So, you're wrong, Barret, foo'. There is a way offa
this train we all on.
~Zedelia, Devourer of Worlds, Souls, and Chicken Salad
|
Neil Gaiman once pointed out that there are some fundamental differences between Japanese and Western storytelling. The Japanese tend to favor more open-ended conclusions that leave room for doubt and discussion, whereas here in the West we tend to like relatively clean endings.
On the other hand, even if all the pieces are there in a Western ending, that doesn't mean you won't have to spend some time putting it together for yourself (Gaiman's own conclusion to Sandman fits into this pattern) and there are innumerable pat, happily-ever-after endings to tons of manga and anime.
Personally, I'm starting to think Square's endings have more to do with their desire to add replay value to a game; certainly most people won't find the "real" ending to Chrono Cross the first time through, although it's not impossible, and games like Xenogears and Vagrant Story become a little more clear when you trace through the plot multiple times. And that in itself brings up some issues, as the next letter illustrates.
| Replay replay |
| Sir Chris of Jones,
I thought Xenogears had a great plot... the second time I played it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not that dumb, but the first time I played it, I
had no clue as to what was going on half the time.
You know those idiots who walk in part way into the movie and ask,
"Who's that guy? Why'd he kill that other guy?" and so on? That was me
playing Xenogears, except I played it from the start.
There is an upside to unnecessarily complex plots. It makes the second
time through so much more enjoyable. Bizarre references near the start
finally made sense, and you can actually notice the massive amount of
foreshadowing.
Conor Edmiston
|
They say you're not supposed to be able to get everything out of a really good movie or album the first time through, and most games would seem to follow this: from Super Mario Bros. to Bionic Commando to Tetris, it's never so much about beating the game as it is having fun however many times you've played it.
Problem is, console RPGs are about beating the game, getting to the end, and figuring things out. Most people don't have the time to revisit a game in search of something they should have gotten the first time, and frankly, most RPGs aren't anywhere near enjoyable enough in gameplay terms to make such a repeat performance worthwhile. I've got no problems with complexity, I've got no problems with games that force you to think about what's happening while it's happening, but at a time where I've got games stacked up three deep waiting to be played, asking me to play through a game a second time, either by design or by narrative incompetence, is just wrong.
| Le mot juste |
| Hey Fritz,
There's no problem with a videogame having a complex plot. Shakespeare
wrote complex storylines and the authors of many novels do as well -
they just do so better. The twists and turns of games like Final Fantasy
Tactics and Xenogears would have been a lot easier to navigate had the
translations or the wording, in general, been better.
There's nothing wrong with difficult language - the problem lies in
poorly written and poorly translated passages. Xenogears digressed and
dismembered the story and reassembled it every fifteen minutes, adding
in undefined plot points and never-before-mentioned characters, leaving
the player nothing short of perplexed. Let me say it better - difficult
language doesn't have to be confusing.
Therefore, if videogame stories were written more coherently (and
spellchecked, thank you FFT), maybe complexity in plots wouldn't be
frowned upon so much.
And Vagrant Story showed us that leaving it up to the player to fill in
plots points is no crime, so long as the information's there (I was
truly impressed by the way that game was written).
Xenogears' other crime, besides being wordy and obtuse, was having no
text speed control. Dammit that game went slow.
--Primus
|
What's there more to say? The right dialog can completely make a game, as with both Vagrant Story and the title below.
| Time to obsess about Dewprism again |
| Too many RPGs (that I've played) are really really long with thinly-streched
plots and plenny of plotholes (with parsley. mini-games. parsley's kind of
useless except to add a liddle spice, an' so are mini-games.)
But my favourite game, so far, ever, I think, would be Threads of Fate. I
like pretty colours, and I like interesting characters, and the plot moved
along quickly, although it wasn't the most original. Of course, as I
mentioned, RPG plots are thinned out over the course of forty hours. Final
Fantasy IX's first disc went along fast, fun, and interesting, but it didn't
really stay that way. Mwerrr.
Dewprism gets overlooked wayyyy too much. Sniffu.
~nezu
|
See, a game like Threads of Fate is what makes me question the value of plot complexity in the first place. Rue's plot is pretty straightforward, Mint's even more so, but I don't think I had as much fun with any other game plot as I did with Dewprism last year. Any number of Rashomon-esque flashbacks or sudden reversals of fortune wouldn't have made it any better, so using plot complexity as some sort of barameter for plot quality just doesn't make any sense.
| Why play the game when you can read the FAQ? |
| I'm all for complex plots. What I don't like it complexity with bad pacing...but we've been over that in this column a million times.
If someone can't understand Vagrant Story or Chrono Cross, too bad- though if they frequent an message board I read, I'll be happy to explain whatever confuses them. Anything to avoid plots being wateded down so eveyone can understand them with no thought involved.
Now that I've said that, fate is probably busy making sure that my next gaming purchase turns out to be a RPG version of Gravity's Rainbow.
-Davon
|
After reading this, the thought occurs: I honestly don't know if I prefer to be able to figure everything out on my own, or have questions afterwards and argue them out with friends. Sounds like a good topic.
Closing Comments:
The topic for tomorrow is narrative closure: how much do you want, and are replays in RPGs a good thing or a bad thing? I'm taking the rest of the week off, but the man himself, the great
Andrew Kaufmann will be here tomorrow, and various skilled, intelligent interesting people will be covering the rest of the week. Have a good 4th everybody, and I'll see you next Monday.
-Chris Jones, gone, gone, gone
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