The debate commences - October
3, 2000 - Chris Jones
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed
within this column are those of the participants and the
moderator, and do not necessarily reflect those of the
GIA. There is coarse language and potentially offensive
material afoot. ToastyFrog is on break again. I'm very unhappy.
Don't say we didn't warn you.
Tonight's column is gonna be a bit late, as you've already
noticed, because I'm writing this during the Presidential debates.
Whenever I try to multitask between the column and something else,
the column tends to get the shaft. Besides, how can I not enjoy two grown
men verbally bashing the hell out of each other on prime time TV?
It's like wrestling, except more interesting, intense and underhanded.
Of course, we've got our own debate to deal with - FF8. Spoilers
ahead, of course. And to get
into the wrestling metaphor a bit more:
Let's get it onward!
| Bitter, resentful
nostalgia |
| My first thought was "FF8, must write bitter resentful flame".
Then I noticed the word "nostalgia". So, instead, I'll reflect of the absolute
wonderful time I had playing through the first few disc's, and try my best to
forget the horrid dissapointment or disc's 3 and 4, with their insane, convulted
plot twist's, and total and utter lack of subsidary character design. Yup, I'll
do my best to remeber disc 1 and 2, who's potential was TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WASTED. *whimper*
-XZeLlDx, who needs a friend. |
A lot of this debate is gonna play out as statements of opinion,
and with opinion being what it is, one person will proclaim an aspect
as brilliant and another as crap... and both can be right.
Meantime, I'll just point out that with a few key moments, the
latter halfs of FFs 6, 7, and 8 have been more exploratory (or
aimless, if you prefer) and as such the strong plotlines established
in the beginning fall by the wayside. Personally, I thought between
the reunion with Ellone and the space rescue, disc 3 was at least as
memorable as 1 and 2, but no reason you should feel the same.
| The Steve speaketh... |
| Yo Chris,
I still have the same feelings for FFVIII as I did about a week after
completion. It was overhyped, so the actual game wasn't as good as I
thought. Although the same happened with Chrono Cross, it was still good
enough to not be a waste of my time.
With FFVIII, you had a tedious battle system and a story that went nowhere.
You knew Squall and Rinoa would get together. The only thing you didn't know
was each character's past. Oh...they're all the same, that's too bad.
The music (excepting Liberi Fatali and the Ending Theme) was awful. Really,
a year after Xenogears and we still had to hear such synthesized stuff? The
orchestrated stuff was AWESOME so it's not that Uematsu can't compose. But
it's like driving a Beetle to work instead of a Ferrari...if you can do it,
go for it.
I tried playing the game a second time to see if my opinion would change, but
it didn't. I couldn't get more than five hours in before drawing spell after
spell put me into a fit. Please, let us not mention that game again...
--The Steve
(However I am looking forward to FFIX quite a bit. It actually looks fun,
imagine that.) |
One thing you say interests me a lot: that the story went nowhere,
that it was predictable. When isn't an RPG story predictable, and what
kind of story do you want that "goes somewhere"?
Admittedly, not every story ends in a predictable manner with the
hero getting the girl and things going happily ever after - FFT and
Vagrant Story come to mind, as do more sweeping epics like Suikoden
and Saga Frontier II. But looking at any of the recent FFs and the
smaller, character driven RPG class that FF represents, there's rarely
any doubt in my mind that things'll end well for the hero, the world
will be saved, and the right people will fall in love. What kind of
story would provide you with something else, and would you even want
something else? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely
curious as to what you want out of an RPG story.
| You wouldn't have
played FFXI in English, by any chance? |
| Re: Matt Blevins' comment about the FFIX
fonts...
The fonts don't look quite so...furry around the edges on a TV screen. I'll
admit that I was surprised by the font choice, but I got used to it pretty
quickly and I don't even notice it anymore. And no, there's no way to change
fonts, although you can change the grey background to a painfully bright
blue. :P As for how I know this...well if I told you I'm afraid I'd have to
kill you. :)
As for FF VIII, the gameplay was ok except for *draw* *draw* magic
forever... The story, however, made it for me. It drew me in more than any
other RPG. It was my favorite FF after I finished it, but FF IX is my fave
now. I love the return to specialized characters, and the story, while very
different from FF VIII's, is just as good. Actually it's better in some
areas, like they actually bothered to develop pretty much all of the
characters instead of just two. It seems like people aren't really all that
excited for FF IX...I think they're in for a big surprise.
Mazoku, who thinks that all Vivi really needs is a hug. :) |
Good to know about FF9... and since that's primarily what you
talked about, and since I won't play it until it comes out in the US,
I'll leave it at that.
| Oh, wow. |
| Oh, wow. See, I didn't get FFVIII until way after it was released... and I'm
gonna be entirely honest here. It was my first Final Fantasy. Not my first
RPG (that would be CT) but my first FF. So here I am, I put my game into my
PlayStation. I had NO idea what this game was about.
.... and then, I heard "Fithos Lusec Wecos Venosec." Full chorus. And that
intro. And THEN the game. I thought it started kind of slow, but once I got
out on the overworld, I was hooked. I fell in love with the characters, the
story, I put in disc after disc, hooked, playing every day.
It IS my favourite game. It introduced me to Final Fantasy, (of which I've
played down to 6), and I understand why others hate it. But I love it. :P
I've played through it twice already, liking it better the second time. I
cried during it. Okay, I cried in FFVII too, but that wasn't as "Goddammit,
I ca'n't see the screen... sniff... sniff... *rubs eyes*"
Characters were perfect (I didn't see any FF7 copies. Okay, Selphie and
Yuffie MAYBE.) Story was great (damn sorceresses.) System was dandy
(junctioning is good. *nodnod*) Graphics were gold (can NO one not like
that Irvine intro? For that matter, can no one not like Irvine? :P) And I
loved how I was so close to Squall. I knew him. :P Very very well.
Freakishly well.
Yes. I liked that game. My favourite game. Then again, a couple of my
other favourite games are Bubble Bobble and Threads of Fate. I should stop
now, before I break a length rule or something.
~nezu also likes lollipops. can she have one? |
What I like about this is it serves to show that in a really
important manner, FF8 still has the FF touch among gaming newcomers.
Ever since FF7 there's been a lot of talk that the FFs have been toned
down to attract the unwashed masses. And I can't deny that a lot of
people have been driven away from the series, by the perception of this
dumbing down if not by the reality of it. But at some point we all had
to be drawn in to the series, and as long as FF's still bringing in
new gamers, it doesn't have much to fear.
| Badass deficient |
| Double agento
FF 8 was, in my opinion, a good game with some crucial flaws. First, the
Junction system was a pain, especially having to draw good spells from bosses
for ten minutes ( It would have been hell if not for my beloved Doomtrain).
Second, the pacing of the story was a bit slow for my tastes, especially near
the beginning. Third, and most importantly, no badasses were playable for any
length of time. Some might try and argue Squall, but one of the cardinal
rules of RPGbadassdom is that the main character (unless there is only one
character) is NOT a badass. All that was presented in the way of badassdom
was Seifer, who was an antagonist for most of the game.
Garvo- From now on, Guile's name gets changed to Magus, SO THERE. |
Badass is as badass does... I have no idea what that means, but
I felt I should say something here.
| The thousand injuries of
Mitsuda fans I had borne as I best could... |
| I can't take it anymore. Today you printed yet another letter insulting
the "Rock Opera" in Chrono Cross. It's time to fight back. Matsuda did
NOT botch that scene! Magical Dreamers is easily one of the best songs on
the awesome (but slightly overrated, IMO) Chrono Cross soundtrack. In
fact, I'd go so far as to say that the only song in the game I like better
is Time's Dream.
As for the Uematsu vs Matsuda debate, I'd say I still slightly prefer
Uematsu. Yes, Matsuda has now delivered three outstanding soundtracks. No
one can argue that his instruments sound better. But he has yet to produce
anything that can match the evocative masterpiece that is Final Fantasy
VII. When Uematsu is at his best, I don't think the synthesized sound
detracts from his music in any way - in many cases, I think it even
enhances the haunting mood of the work. (Example: Anxious Heart). Here's
an experiment for you: try making a single cd (or 70 minute playlist) of
your favorite songs from one soundtrack. I did this with FF VII and it's
been one of my favorite cds to listen to for the last two years. I did it
with Chrono Cross and Suikoden II (both great soundtracks), and the results
were merely "good".
David |
Tastes differ - FFVII has maybe seven or eight tracks I really like
listening to, whereas FFT and Chrono Cross have fifteen or twenty. As
far as making a 70 minute playlist, that's a little weighted in FF7's
favor since it's 4 CDs as compared to 3 or 2.
Everybody seems agreed that when Uematsu is on with his music, he's
ON - he can go head to head with anybody. Perhaps he just needs to cut
back on composing so many themes, and put more care into producing
what he does create.
| Mojo likes Dragonball.
Wow. |
| I will take a moment out of my misguided and
frighteningly alcoholic love-fest for Lucky Dan/Mojo
to reply to your querry over FF8.
I purchased the last copy of FF8 in my town on opening
day. How do I know this? Because I spent 4 hours going
all across town to find a copy. In the end, I bought a
copy that someone else had pre-ordered but had not
picked up. At Wal-Mart no less! More proof that
pre-orders are worthless. Well, I popped it into my
oldest-generation playstation, at 112pm. Saw the
opening movie. Blinked. Reset. Then saw the opening
movie one more time. I was highly impressed by the
non-FMV graphics, a refining of Square's Parasite Eve
techniques. The music I was mostly disappointed with.
I fell in love with the score of FF7 and was highly
disatisfied by the FF8 music. I just couldn't muster
any emotional respone to the music. I found that the
greatest replay value of the game was to play Triple
Triad until 3 am each school night.
As to the confusing Junction System.... well..... I
basically developed a method to junctioning. I would
close my eyes and randomly junction. That person would
then be the main junctioner for that GF for the rest
of the game. It worked fine. Now on to the story.
The story at first started to grip me, but then, I
felt it get extrememly tedious, almost like it was
written as an after thought. By Disc 2 the only thing
that kept me going was that I have found everything
and beaten every SquareSoft game released in the US
and I wasn't going to let my record be broken now!
I tried, really tried to be swept along with Rinoa and
Squall, but I just couldn't. I liked the way their
relationship played out, but I just couldn't care. I
knew the directions the game was going to take by the
end of Disc 1, and so finishing it was dogged
persistance on my part.
To summarize a probably pointless letter that won't
get put up: I would loved FF8 had it been released as
a novel instead of a game.
SSJPabs
PS: Why do you always rag on Dragonball? It is the
greatest thing I have yet encountered in the
entertainment world. I'm not joking.
I think Mojo Agrees |
If you didn't like the Squall/Rinoa relationship, why do you think
a novelization would be any more attractive?
For me, Dragonball is 60 minutes of great action spread out over
four seasons of animation. I would pay hard cash for a DBZ best-of
clip show, but other than that, I've got better things to do. If Mojo
agrees, all the more reason to stay away.
| Yeah, but Selphie's
cuter than Velma... |
| Mr Jones,
Here I am writing you again, blame it on too much time between compiles, and
an interesting topic I guess. Anyhoo, when I saw the topic for today, I
couldn't keep from writing in. I have one major gripe about FF8, and no it's
not it's flat characters, nor it's clunky junction system, nor how it just
seemed "empty"(all valid complaints). But my gripe is about Ultimecia's
Castle.
See to me the entire castle thing seemed like an episode of Scooby-Doo.
You've got a group of kooky teenage kids running around in a spooky
psuedo-gothic castle with spooky music and lightning in the background. When
I beat Ultimecia I was expecting to see Squall pull off her mask and it'd
really Xu and she'd say, "And I would've gotten away with it too if it
weren't for you pesky kids!" while Zell exclaim "Zoinks! Squall!" Just a
thought.
Mr. Cruz |
I dunno - there's an element of teenage wackiness inherent in FF8,
but until I locate the long lost Scooby Doo episode where Fred attempts
to assassinate the ruler of a foreign dictatorship, I don't think
there is as much resemblance as you seem to.
| One last moment of
gratuitous Square worship |
| What to begin with on what I think is the greatest
FF ever?
Let's try the SeeD dance scene, the official signpost to all the naysayers
that this was a FF as true as the rest...
Or the scene w/ Quistis afterward where I totally felt like smashing
Squall's face in, the only time I ever felt like that about a main character
in a game...
Or when Ellone gets taken away by the White Seed as Squall stays in his bed
battling his inner demons, the one and only truly insightful look I've seen
a character ever have in any game, with excellent mood music...
Or the time when he risks his life to go after the woman he loves, not caring
if he lives, only caring about whther or not she died alone...
Then there's the speech that Squall gives when battling the Galbadian Garden;
need I say more....Most of these involve Squall, but that makes sense: he's the best character
Square has ever made. You hated him, you understood him, you would follow him,
you cared for him but mostly you could RELATE TO HIM. HE WAS HUMAN.
I still play the game constantly, having gone through it 6 or 7 times, more
than any other game or RPG. There was a time when I beat it EVERYDAY for about
3-4 months just to watch the ending. And to me that's what makes it not only
a FF but the best FF:
Squall's eyes in the end.
I will always remember the picture and the music at that part. The moment
he turns to look at Rinoa is the money shot. He is smiling, he is happy, and
you realize every moment you spent was worth it. It's the same feeling you get
when Aeris was placed in the water by Cloud, when Rydia came back to rescue
you from Golbez, and when Celes gave up on life and jumped off the cliff. And if you don't or didn't get that same feeling, then I sincerely, truly, honestly consider myself a very lucky individual.
Thanks a million Square.
Chooch |
I was pretty well blown away by the game after I finished it,
although my feelings never approached this level of passion and I've
calmed down since, regardless. But for me, what ended up making the
game wasn't so much the climactic moments - the space rescue, the
assassination attempt, the battle of the Gardens - it was the
combination of those moments with the perfectly ordinary situations
that established the characters as real people.
Look, I've seen more than a few emails complaining that a bunch of
people standing around a deserted basketball court isn't what they want
to see, or that Squall's far too taciturn to be believable. But
standing around a basketball court seems a totally believable thing for
teenagers in our reality to do, so why shouldn't that be true of
other worlds? And hell, I've been Squall, or at least in his
position, where I was silent and stone-faced in front of people who
were opening up to me, not because I didn't feel anything but because I
didn't know what to say or how to say it. The point is, FF8's
characters worked for me precisely because they were less than heroic,
because they were people I could have known in high school asked to do
extraordinary things. And for that alone, FF8 stands for me as the
best yet. Other FFs may revert back to "heroic archetypes save the
world", but now that I know what Square is capable of, I know what I
expect from here on out.
Closing Comments:
Good debate I thought, but I guess it's an acquired taste.
Incidentally, I'm not gonna tell you who to vote for, but I will
remind you that it's a good thing to vote, so register if you
haven't already.
Also a
lot (and I mean A LOT) of great letters sent in today - the problem
with doing a topic like this is that everybody has an opinion, and
writes as well as they can about it, which makes it hard to get all
viewpoints in and still keep a readable column going. So sorry if you
didn't get printed, but keep submitting none the less - it's
appreciated.
For tomorrow, I'd like to go back and look at what I talked about
with regards to The Steve's letter - what do you want out of a story
these days? What differentiates a weak, lame story from a strong,
interesting one? Examples are fine, but I'm looking for more than "FFV
had the greatest story ever because I loved it so much." You might keep
in mind that maybe the reason a lot of modern stories seem to be
failing is exactly because they're rehashes of earlier stories you
fell in love with, so how can plotlines branch out in original ways
without encroaching on previous games? Enlighten me. Later.
-Chris Jones, admits he's no
Jack Kennedy |
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