Disclaimer: The opinions expressed within this column are those of the participants and the moderator, and do not necessarily reflect those of the GIA. There is coarse language and potentially offensive material afoot. Entertainment. Excitement. Scenic Beauty. Fun. Don't say we didn't warn you.

So anyway....

In the haze of yesterday's bleary-eyed crabbiness I neglected to thank Andrew & Arpad for covering my ass. As usual, they did an excellent job of making me look like a complete waste of flesh while I was away with some awesome discussion.

Fewer letters today than usual, but I'll work with what I've got. Let's go.

Nothing creates concern like seeing someone smack your fighter over the head with a big wooden club

Bonjour, mademoiselle. To allay any fears you may have had about about the quality of the previous nights coloumn, let me tell you that it was of a particuarly good standard. Actually, people seem to respond to some topics better than others, and this one brought out some good replies. And you were just divine. So, no complaints. Now, on the topic... Well, there have been some SUPERB RPG's in first person. Ultima Underworld, Eye Of The Beholder (especially 2), Wizardry (7 was the best, although I haven't played 8), and Lands of Lore all come to mind. The one thing that's obvious about all of these, is that they are PC RPGs. Now, the main difference between console and PC RPGs is that console ones are centered around characterisation, and PC ones are centered aroun dungeon crawling. Lately there have been PC RPGs that are playing more like console RPGs. Baldur's Gate, and especially the excellent Planescape: Torment come to mind. The problem with a first person viewpoint is that you can't see your characters, and so a little line of text isn't going to create the same amount of concern as seeing someone smack your fighter over the head with a big wooden club. Also, if it constantly switches between a first-person viewpoint, and a third-person view for story sequences it would get pretty jarring for the player. Anyway, all the first-person PC RPGs that I listed above have little to no characterisation of the player characters or the NPCs, especially the ones that join your party. The exception is Lands of Lore, but that only managed a pretty small amount in comparison to something like FF7, and this was only achieved by being ridiulously linear, and giving you no choice over your party. This lack of characterisation wouldn't really wash in a console enviroment, and thus game designers are pretty much stuck with having a third person view. Of course, there is another reason. Why have it in first-person? When you're in first-person, it kind of assumes that you ARE that guy/gal/thing. In a third-person view, it seems that you are taking control of the character on screen. How many console RPGs have you played without the main character having some deep, dark secret of sorts? Thus, any plot twists relating to the player character(s) would feel unnatural in the context of the game. This might sound a bit contrived on paper, but when you are actually playing, it would make more sense Oh yeah, and first-person is far less cinematic than third-person, and who can think of any game companys trying to be less cinematic? DarkJodi - this has been an official brain dump Agent: If an rpg's focus is on enthralling character development and story progression, then it is only natural to logically assume that a 3rd person viewpoint, underscoring the main character's individuality and differences from the player, would lend itself to better rpg's. Thus, while nothing is intrinsically WRONG with 1st person rpg's, they are not conducive to the better qualities of rpgs. Note the inherent flaws in this argument, however; if better rpg's tend to have deeper characters, where does the godliness of Chrono Trigger factor in? (You will notice from yesterday's column that I draw almost all my examples from Squaresoft.) Well, I would argue that the surrounding environment, coupled with Crono's unique appearance and varied body motions, give the player a sense of "who" Crono "is," without confining him to a developer's idiosyncrasies (i.e., Crono is appealing because his values and beliefs are synonymous with the player's, yet Crono fits the imaginary world better than a first-person player ever would). That's my two cents. Peace out. Pal. "Ramza, what did you get?" - Squareman (formerly A Nony Mouse).

First-person exploration really fits in less and less with the direction console RPGs are taking/have taken. For better or worse, players are increasingly relegated to more of an outside observer role with regards to game characters. Projecting your personality onto the largely blank canvas of some obtuse protagonist is fighting an uphill battle with just going along for the ride with an interesting, more fleshed-out character - in the console realm, anyway, where, as DarkJodi mentions, characterization is king. If you're playing a game for its intriguing central characters, it's just a plain ol' gyp if you don't actually get to see them get clobbered.

Nevermind how much more jarring the transition into a descriptive third person cutscene is when you have to suddenly be jolted out of your avatar's body to better see the action....

Through the roof

... Erin. [smiles] The first-person dungeon crawl isn't quite dead yet. Perhaps you haven't heard, but Wizardry 8 was finally published. And it rocks. Damn, forgot, no PC games. Anyways, the third-person style used in most console RPGs makes sense, because the story is about the characters, in that their actual identity is integral to the plot, and seeing the characters on-screen brings them to life. On the other hand, if the character(s) are just some random entity that happens to be in the right place at the right time, and it doesn't matter who they are, a first-person perspective helps bring the world to life, as opposed to the characters. That's why it works in an FPS - who the character is doesn't really matter as far as developing the story (such as it may be). The problem lies in rising about the dungeon-crawl level and creating a story the works well with the player character(s) playing a role, as opposed to starring. It's just not easy to do. Hmm, anyone for a port of System Shock 2? (PC games again? Bad Orin, bad). Besides, a third-person dungeon doesn't have a roof, which kind of takes away from the dungeon-ness of the whole thing. Orin the Lawyer - taking the day off to see LotR tomorrow

Perhaps I should've qualified my implication that the first-person dungeon crawl is a dying breed: it's a thriving beast on the PC and 469 people wrote in to tell me this. But, damn... there was me making assumptions that everyone would assume I was speaking from the GIA's cozy little corner of console coverage. (Yes, I just recently popped today's pills.)

At any rate... what the hell d'you mean third person dungeons don't have roofs? What the hell is that I'm always hitting when I try casting Return in DW?

Good riddance to Wizardry's hot (if large) ass

Erin - What IS with 1st person dungeons anyway? They sucked bad. The Wizardry series sucked because of them, and I wasn't a huge PS1 fan either. They made me cringe in Ultima:Quest of the Avatar. Speaking of Ultima 4...that game was such a damn letdown. I had read all about it in Nintendo Secrets volume 2 (or was it 3?) and really wanted ot play it. Funcoland finally gets a copy, I play it, and I hate it. Oh well. Speaking of How To Win At Nintendo Games, anyone remember those books? Or the fact that the guy who mad ethe, Jeff Rovin, also wrote the Mortal Kombat novel,w hich was damn good. Thought not. Anyway, that wasn't very on topic, so I'll sum up first person dungeons. Pain. They suck. Fuck 1st person dungeons. Alirght, I know I should defend this view or someting, but I can't. I just don't like them at all. No real reason. It's like how my friend thinks Jennifer Lopez's ass is too big, but I think that it's not quite too big, and she's damn hot. You can't EXPLAIN preferences like that, they just...are there. So, yeah. Peace, Ray Stryker...not the one who's tryin to be your enemy.... Dear Erin, good riddance, I say. -Drew

Spoken like true console gamers.

Before everyone flames Stryker for dissing Wizardry and Ultima, review that part in your philosophy text about "normative ethical relativism."

Misunderstandings have the potential to make for interesting letters when well done

Dungeon crawls have to potential to make for interesting gaming when done well. If you don't think so, then you lack imagination. They don't *have* to be a nonsensical maze with orthogonal passages that have the same texture map over and over again. Look at the Zelda games for example. I had more fun in the dungeons in most of the Zelda games than elsewhere. (not so much in Zelda 2, as they were kind of bland, and Majora's Mask, since interacting with the citizens of Termina is just *that* interesting) If you're looking for a more traditional, old-school, PC-kinda D&D dungeon crawl with a horde of gold hidden by a nasty wizard or dragon, then you can build the dungeon around said wizard or dragon, and in the process, you can develop the nemesis's character by displaying how he/she lives. Wizards and their minions have to eat too, ya know, so there'd logically be a kitchen or other food preparation area somewhere. Infuse the background with information about the enemy so he/she won't have to recite to the player his/her life story. Now the alternate route to go is along with Diablo and its clones and make a randomly generated dungeon. This is acceptable, and can be done well, but you'll have to make for *damn* sure you're making a game the player would like to play through multiple times. Diablo particularly worked for its online capabilities and frequent modest rewards to give the player a sense of empowerment and direction. If you're making a random dungeon game that's not online, say, the Mysterious Dungeon series, (as far as I know) that's a big warning flag right there. Andrew Egerton

But.... Zelda doesn't really have first-person dungeons?

Regardless, this letter gets me to thinking about the legendarily lame visual presentations of first-person dungeons in console RPGs. Maybe if there was ever more to lure the eye about these things than monotonous texture-mapped bricks, the average console gamer would have an easier time warming up to them. C'mon. We are the generation who bought into the SEGA scream - we have very short attention spans, and need constant, epileptic fit-inducing visual stimulus.

Indecision

Part of me wants to hug you for admitting being bored with the Zelda theme, and the other part of me wants to bludgeon you for lumping Megaman with 'ugly'. I guess I'll answer the topic while I make up my mind. Oddly enough, when you said, 'First-Person RPG', my first thought wasn't Phantasy Star, but instead good old Shadowgate, and 'sequels' Deja Vu and Uninvited. I miss that 'Pick-a-Path' style of play - nowadays we're stuck with the Myst design of spending hours watching birds lay eggs, hoping they'll reveal a passcode with their mating calls. Starship Titanic had something closer to the Shadowgate touch, but that reminds me too much of Douglas Adams, and I miss him too. It's pretty ironic that the makers of Myst thought they were updating the exploration-adventure genre by removing the text, isn't it? SonicPanda, still trying to decide, so don't go anywhere

Not to get off on a tangent about a PC title, but Starship Titanic was probably the last game I've played with purely first-person navigation that really worked for me. Going along with everything I've already said, this was a game that cast us, as is, in the leading role and didn't ask us to sympathize with some bland avatar. And with its wide open spaces and varied art deco decor, it also wasn't exactly a "dungeon crawl" in the old connotative sense of the word.

But of course ST wasn't even an RPG, so....

Shoot stuff until you escape

Agent E - The first person RPG isn't "dead," per se...it's just really not what it's used to be. Nowadays, the tattered remnants of the genre seems to have merged with its closest living relative, the dreaded first-person shooter. Deus Ex is probably the best proof of this at the moment. The game could be labeled an FPS, but there's way to much plot, character interaction, and fetch questing to fit under the concept of "okay, shoot stuff until you escape" that pervades the genre. So, yeah. Deus Ex. First-person-RPG-shooter thing. Great game. Whoo-hoo. Yeah. Rock on. - An'Desha, personally missing the release dates of both Final Fantasy X and Lord of the Rings.

This is a certain amount of truth to this.

The last PC RPG I played was the aforementioned, dreadful Stonekeep, which has effectively scared me off them since, but I digress... Interplay's masterwork in shit was more like an FPS with a retarded sword instead of an ass-kicking, name-taking firearm - a First Person Fencer, if you will.

Again, though, we're veering off into PC territory...

's rough about missing FF and LotR, dude. Sucks to be you - but I sympathize entirely.

It's not an excuse - it's a REASON!

Erin, I have a little side note, and I would appreciate its being passed on... An'Desha: It's okay...it's not your fault. Buy the game and blame it on Squaresoft. "Well, it was supposed to come out the 26th..." "I planned on getting it ASAP when they said the 26th..." "I couldn't just go and change my plans could I?" "It's THEIR fault. THEY pushed up the release date!" Well, at least, that's the excuse I used. I had made the same promise, and those mighty words delivered me to salvation, out of the hands of a taint of deception. Ain't it quaint how that works? ~Beowulf_VII, planning to start buying gifts for other people on Wednesday...I swear...I even took the day off work...and why am I explaining myself to you?

That reminds me... I'm supposed to do my own shopping Wednesday... What? That's tomorrow?!

Closing Comments:

Yes, folks. We're fast approaching the final, frenzied leg of the shopping season.

So tomorrow, why don't you do hapless last-minute gift-seekers everywhere a favor and serve up your very own personal 2001 Holiday Buyer's Guide. Climb on up into old Erin's lap and give me your own personal spin on what makes your eyes gleam with unbridled avarice and/or what's better suited for the fire than the proverbial lump of coal this holiday season. And - gah! - dun pull at that! It's real! I just forgot to pluck today, dammit!

-Erin Mehlos