As infantile as the Double Agents - May 27, 2001 - Drew Cosner
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed within this column are those of the participants and the moderator, and do not neccessarily reflect those of the GIA. There is coarse language and potentially offensive material afoot. Doo wa diddy diddy dum Diddy Kong. Don't say we didn't warn you.
Ah yes. The 2001 GIA E3 photo gallery is almost finished, which means soon you'll get to see unflattering photographs of myself and the rest of the staff. A less photogenic collection of dorks there is not.
The only unfortunate thing is the relative dearth of booth babes this year. There just weren't that many at the show, for whatever reasons. At least one good thing about Eidos almost undoubtedly having a new Tomb Raider game on show next year is the obligatory Lara look-alike that will accompany it. I may not play the games, but I appreciate being pandered to as much as the next lowlife.
| Keep trying until they get it right |
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Drew, both on-topic and off.
First...I hear all this Xbox bashing, and I know a lot
of it is deserved. Let's get this out of the way
first: I think Xbox will do badly. I think this after
withholding judgement on it until I'd seen the
majority of their launch lineup, and realizing that
Sony's second-gen titles and GC's first-gen titles are
going to hammer it like a pair of ... big things.
But what I've heard rumblings of is counting Microsoft
out, saying they have to be the underdog...this I can
assure you will not be the case...at least, not
forever.
Take Internet Explorer. When it first came out, it was
a hideous pile of crap. And rightly derided for being
such. Now look at IE 5.5. Pretty killer, eh? Not
perfect, but it's stomping.
Xbox 1 will probably be bad. But Microsoft learns from
their mistakes, and they are big enough to take the
punch of $500 million down the tubes. Xbox 2 will be
better. Xbox 3 will most likely be killer. And you
know Microsoft *will* stay in this market. When they
play, they play for keeps.
This leads into my actual on-topic point. Microsoft is
getting the rep for the crap-ass American underdog
right now, and Nintendo has the rep as the kiddie
company.
I see both of these changing. Fast.
Call it a product of the MTV generation, but if
Nintendo rolls out a strong product line aimed at
people over the age of 12, that kiddie company tag is
going to drop off faster than you can blink. Xbox
might be horrid, but if Xbox 2 or 3 is the ultimate
killer game machine, nobody's going to laugh at
Microsoft ... they'll be pulling out credit cards.
I seriously think that's all Nintendo needs to do. Put
out more titles that aren't kiddy oriented ...
basically, put out a lineup where the majority
of titles are not for under-12 year olds. Universal
appeal in this case...does not count. That kiddie
image will have some effect, and I think this is it.
If there are enough titles to choose from that aren't
kiddy oriented, and not "universal but with that kiddy
image stigma" .. well, I think that's all they need.
Either that or let Yamauchi loose on some preschoolers
or something. That would take care of it.
"News at six: Crazy CEO man scares the living
daylights out of preschoolers! Parents cry "I just
wanted a copy of Pokemon: Iridium Edition! Why,
Yamauchi, Why!?!?!"
... okay, maybe not EXACTLY like that ...
-Peter
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I've heard that argument made of Microsoft several times now, and I have my reservations with it. Okay, sure, when it comes to software, Microsoft will keep plugging away until they get it right, then using their reputation to obliterate the competition that also happened to be the founders of the idea. However, that's the key point here: Microsoft is first and foremost a software company, and they have to maintain a reputation as a giant in the field; it's their bread and butter.
Conversely, hardware projects like the Xbox are satellite items that needn't be pursued with the same vigor. Microsoft has and will dump unprofitable hardware projects as they see fit; you don't exactly see the company trying to get their talking Barney doll "right," now do you? Also, it's one thing to lose a few million developing software until you get it right -- it's another to blow 500 million on a failed launch of a console that was only meant as additional income.
So, that said, should the Xbox fail (as most anticipate), I wouldn't be surprised to see an Xbox 2 of some sort. But I will be shocked if Microsoft fails multiple times and keeps plugging away at it until they finally create a successful console. The company has other, more perennially successful projects to pursue, and it's not as though Bill Gates simply needs to get in on the videogame feast: I'm sure it was just seen as a way to pick up extra dough.
As for your comments regarding Nintendo, I'd hate to see the company take that sort of approach. Universal appeal is what makes Nintendo games great; I say let the second-parties worry about making the "mature" titles. I'm sure we'll be seeing Conker's Other Bad Fur Day soon enough to that exact end.
| Think different: eat babies |
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Hey Drew!
Nintendo might make more games aimed at a younger audience, but at least
what they have to offer is already clear to us the consumers, so you know
what you're buyign when you buy a GC. They don't need to change their image
because if I don't want to play their kind of games I'll buy a PS2. The
choice for us isn't blurry when it comes to the GC/PS2, but it sure is when
it comes to the X-Box who so far had nothing more to offer than PS2
ports/sequels or games that look like a blend between PS1 and PC games (not
graphicly of course). That's why I only want Nintendo and the PS2 to
succeed, because that way there will be much less titles being fought over
by two companies and instead all the companies will be able to focuss on
their games instead of who to develop for, because that will already be
clear based on what type of game they are making. In the end that would be
our best option and would leave place to a more calm and prosper gaming
industry, in my view anyway.
-Phil, who respects Nintendo for being different even tho he has no plans
to buy their console.
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Excellent, excellent point, Phil. Nintendo has a profitable niche, which is something people seem to forget. Make all the cracks you will about the N64 and it's "kiddy games," Nintendo still rode that one all the way to the bank.
In fact, I've heard it argued that third-parties are actually leery of publishing for Nintendo systems just because they have to compete with Nintendo's mighty first-party software. When the average consumer only buys 3 games a year and Nintendo has a first or second-party title a month, what do you think is going to happen?
Then again, as long as there are enough consoles in homes, the market becomes diverse and that fails to be such an issue, but it's still interesting to consider.
| Dear Nintendo: IHATEYOUIHATEYOUIHATEYOU |
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I really don't get you guys. I agree that the XBox
presentation wasn't very good. But what was so great
about Nintendo's? Sure, they showed us some
pre-rendered Zelda and Metroid videos. But those
games won't be here in at least two years. Ok, that
leaves them with Pikmin and Luigi's Mansion. hmm.....
Both games are innovative but any person older than
10 will get bored in a few minutes after playing such
infantile games.
My theory is that the XBox presentation was so bad
that Nintendo's mediocre lineup started to look good
to some people.
People seem to forget that Nintendo did this same
thing with the N64. They talked about how great their
system was going to be and showed us some fake
pre-rendered videos. Do you remember the Final
Fantasy demo with the characters from FF6? For years
they insisted that the N64 was the best system with
the best games. They have lied to us so much that I
can't understand how people take them seriously.
Yamauchi is the king of evil and they will have to do
something really special in order to convince me
otherwise.
Years ago I used to be a Nintendo fanboy but after the
disappointment of the N64 I gave up gaming. I hadn't
played a videogame for months when my mom gave me a
PlayStation for Christmas and I loved games once
again. For the past few years I have been a happy
gamer without having to worry about Nintendo's lies
and evil plots. I won't forget what Nintendo did to
me. I will hate them forever.
-JERF
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This is the exact viewpoint that I simply can't respect. JERF here is basing his opinion of these games entirely around a their visual style, with no consideration for the actual gameplay. Having played both Pikmin and Luigi's Mansion, I can tell you that they're both quirky, enthralling works with a lot of potential. Potential that showed through despite the relatively limited gameplay available on the demo kiosks. Sure, the graphical style of either game wasn't exactly gritty, but assuming that the games are going to be a bore specifically because of that is ridiculous.
Another thing I might add is that we've only seen a portion of the stuff Nintendo's got in the making: it's pretty well known now that the new Mario and Zelda game will be shown at Space World, in addition to other things we probably don't even know about yet. In a way, Nintendo seemed to have scraped together a show presence that wouldn't give away too much just yet; it speaks volumes that that alone impressed gamers to the extent they did.
Not only that, but the FF6 footage of which you speak was never announced as a game. It was always a tech demo intended to display what the N64 was capable of, and nothing more. That's like getting pissed that there was never a duck-floating-in-a-bathtub game for your PlayStation 2.
And frankly, if you have such a problem with marketing bombast, you should be hating Sony: they're the ones who claimed the PS2 was "not just the future of interactive entertainment, but entertainment, period."
| The inevitable sex letter |
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How does Nintendo dispel their kiddie image in the mind of gamers? That's easy -- finally let Mario get it on with Princess Peach. I mean, how many times does he have to say her frigid ass before he gets some?
-Ur
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Well, I should have known I would have gotten responses of this nature. Frighteningly, this is one of the more tame examples I received.
Besides, I personally find the idea of a game depicting Mario giving it to Peach about as appealing a concept as a peripheral that simulates ramming thumbtacks under your fingernails. If that's what's considered "mature," no wonder I always get Nintendo's systems first.
| "Subliminable" advertising |
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What would it take for Nintendo to dispel the
"kid" image? A lot will depend on how it ends up being
marketed. The N64 was marketed AS a kiddie console
despite its mature games. Look at the people in the
commercials, Nintendo has used mostly kids while Sony
generally tended to use teens, and sometimes older
teens at that for the Play station.
The way the games were marketed also reflected that. I
don't know if this registers consciously or not, but
if you are constantly bombarded with images of a
specific kind of person playing a certain game,
instinct begins to associate the game with said
person. There will always be those who go against the
mold, but a large part of it is the herd mentality. If
everyone still SAYS the games are for kids, and the
marketing strategies use kids as their focus, then
people believe it regardless of its veracity.
Its all about marketing and image convincing the
greatest group of people just who is SUPPOSED to play
this game.
-SSJPabs
(and no, I am not discriminating against pre-teens and
younger gamers)
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Excellent point, SSJPabs, and one that I admittedly hadn't even considered. Nintendo did start to reverse this trend in the later hours of the N64's lifespan, the best example being the commercial with the kid whose girlfriend is asking him to pick out a bathing suit for her. Perhaps if the company continues with something even so subtle as this with the GameCube's marketing, it will help. After all, I doubt it would put off younger kids, since we all liked the idea of emulating the older kids in our youth, even if we didn't know that's what we were doing.
| Can't lose the image |
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Well, in all respects, there's nothing really Nintendo can do to get rid of
the kiddy image. The good thing about having a kiddie image, though, is that
parents wanting a console for their children to go to will chose the GC
because it has more kid friendly games. MGS2 just doesn't reach out to the
6-year-old as well as Luigi's Mansion does. Unfortunately, it also scares
away the ignorant casual gamers who don't look in further before choosing a
console. They hear about mature games over on Sony's side, and they're set.
Anyway, everything Nintendo could try would backfire on them
(*cough*BFC*cough*), so trying is worthless. Word of mouth will have to
declare Nintendo as a worthwhile company again before they lose their kiddie
image (or still keep it, only have it be associated with mature as well).
-Opty, probably the only person impressed that Nintendo had the balls enough
to announce the GC's price after it was leaked, much unlike Microsoft's X-box
design debacle
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I actually expect to see Nintendo pushing more mature second-party titles with the GameCube. It's really the best of both worlds: Nintendo's first-party stuff continues to appeal to the younger market and those gamers who dig Nintendo gameplay, while more mature second-party titles appeal to those who absolutely must have "mature themes" in their games to enjoy them. In fact, it's already starting to happen: Eternal Darkness is looking mighty good and is expected as a launch title, and when it comes to a Conker follow-up, Rare has pretty much been winking with a 35-foot eye.
This is going to be a really interesting console generation.
| What is "kiddy?" |
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Yes, what exactly defines a "kiddy" game? Tell me? I've been debating this issue thoroughly at different forums just to change opinion from the "Nintendo is a kiddie company outlook" to the "It isn't kiddie just because it isnt blood splashed all over the screen".
I just recently visited a toystore nearby and asked for a Nintendo, the Clerk didn't even know what it was then I clarified and said videogames. Then she caught up and showed me a PSX, I mean, wich ones the kiddie console now?
And guess what, Nintendo has a HIGHER medium age than the PSX. REAL mature gamers can have fun with great games that DON'T involve blowing someones brains out. Only immature children buy games because they're so violent and that's like really cool.
And this is coming from a guy that doesn't even OWN a N64 but just loves his PSX for all the great Konami and Square games. But, from time to time I don't mind visiting my friends house to take a match of Diddy Kong Racing for if you are secure in your maturity and image you don't need to despice everything else and just play gorey games.
I'd like to take a minute and excuse myself if I made many grammatical or spelling errors, but English is not my native language.
PS. Keep up the good work, always nice hearing voices of sanity emitting from the GIA.
Regards,
Jonas Lindgren
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While most will immediately point out blood 'n guts as a deciding factor in whether a game is "kiddy" or not, I think there's other issues that are even more important in determing a game's age aura. Most importantly are the themes: Metal Gear Solid 2 deals with some pretty complex issues, whereas Mario is still saving the princess from a fire-breathing dragon.
Gameplay also has a certain maturity level, in that shooting terrorists and jumping on the heads of giant mushroom things skews towards different tastes. A single person may have a taste for both type of game, but there's no arguing the more adult-orientated nature of the former. Then again, if all you really care about is how fun the gameplay is, it really shouldn't matter if you're beating old women to death with Satan's penis or escorting letters of the alphabet across a giant forest made of jelly-filled donuts. But that's an entirely different strand of discussion.
As for violence, mature games do intend to include some measure of it: it would be pretty odd if shooting someone in MGS2 made them flicker and disappear. However, I've seen plenty of games with a decidedly immature mentality that were filled with blood: if you think Reloaded is "mature," you probably still laugh when dogs sniff each other's asses.
| Where are some of you people's priorities? |
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Drew...
God damn. If Conker's Bad Fur Day didn't convince gamers that Nintendo is
more than willing to shed its kiddie image, I don't know what will. If you'd
told me back when the ESRB ratings were implemented that the company that
would push the limits of the "M" rating the farthest would be Nintendo, I'd
have... well, you know.
Of course, it was kinda Nintendo's fault that Conker didn't take off because
(whoops) they didn't advertise it in any of the usual places for fear of
getting heat from parents. So here's my freelance ad campaign for Conker's:
"Conker's Bad Fur Day: not only is it hilariously risque, it's a brilliantly
designed action/adventure/puzzle game reminiscent of a cross between Mario 64
and Leisure Suit Larry, with deep gameplay, amazing graphics, and beautiful
music. Buy this game or I will cut you."
Chris Kohler
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I print this mainly for its final paragraph. Conker is an amazing, amazing game, with or without the humor. It's far and away the most involving, cinematic game I've ever played. If you're willing to buy a $300 Xbox for some random game just because, but you won't buy a $99 N64 for Conker, then screw you. We don't need you in these here parts.
Closing comments:
Who the fuck is Chris Jones? Why don't you ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll have a snappy answer that will make you feel like a retard.
-Drew Cosner, deleter of crucial system files on other people's computers
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